Financial Fair Play

[Guido 🇺🇦]

I read / heard on podcasts that the Sheik has decided he would rather spend £50M on lawyers taking UEFA to court than on fines for FFP - can see this going a long way.

Other than that the stated aim of FFP was to ensure clubs were not at risk of going bust not sporting integrity. They need to update the reasoning for FFP.

This is a bit deeper than FFP though, this is about deceiving, falsifying and lying to those that investigated their FFP irregularities back in 2014. An agreement was made and settled back then, however, documents found through Football Leaks and subsequently published by Spiegel showed they hid and deceived those investigating.

City's only defence so far has been a flat denial and to point the finger at the documents used as "stolen". They haven't denied the documents (emails) aren't theirs just that they were obtained illegally.

But ultimately you are right about FFP, with the exception of QPR I'm struggling to think of a club that has been caught and fined that has still walked away with nothing other than a direct benefit to flaunting the rules. I think Leicester have been the biggest winners, as their irregularities saw them ultimately get into the PL, then win the bloody thing whilst accepting a fine of just £4m!! Not a bad return given the PL TV money and then followed by winning it and then getting the CL revenue too.

 

[r-u-s-x]

This is a bit deeper than FFP though, this is about deceiving, falsifying and lying to those that investigated their FFP irregularities back in 2014. An agreement was made and settled back then, however, documents found through Football Leaks and subsequently published by Spiegel showed they hid and deceived those investigating.

City's only defence so far has been a flat denial and to point the finger at the documents used as "stolen". They haven't denied the documents (emails) aren't theirs just that they were obtained illegally.

But ultimately you are right about FFP, with the exception of QPR I'm struggling to think of a club that has been caught and fined that has still walked away with nothing other than a direct benefit to flaunting the rules. I think Leicester have been the biggest winners, as their irregularities saw them ultimately get into the PL, then win the bloody thing whilst accepting a fine of just £4m!! Not a bad return given the PL TV money and then followed by winning it and then getting the CL revenue too.

City will go to courts to argue the legality of FFP rather than they broke it imo - will be very messy and I think UEFA will lose. I think they will go to the law courts rather than CAS and go through every appeal possible.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

City will go to courts to argue the legality of FFP rather than they broke it imo - will be very messy and I think UEFA will lose. I think they will go to the law courts rather than CAS and go through every appeal possible.

I think the only thing that is a guarantee is City will happily take this to legal, they've said this within the leaked emails. As for winners and losseres, the only guaranteed winner are the lawyers (both sides).

 

[Art Vandelay]

Article 4.08 reads "a club which is not admitted to the competition is replaced by the next best-placed club in the top domestic championship of the same association".

In essence. if Man City are thrown out of CL then Woolwich get a place. If they win the Europa then that place passes on to Manchester United.

 

[superstaryid]

How is FFP even legal sport doesn't operate under a different law does it ?

If I wished to use my money from one highly lucrative business to compensate for on going losses from another of my companies I could do that couldn't I? How can they change the law for football with out being in breach of the actual law?

 

[SpiderSpurs]

Man Utd could get Champions league?

 

[Super Jan Fan]

Any ban would surely be for the following season.

 

[Tomo]

Man Utd could get Champions league?

Yep if Woolwich won the EL and City get banned from next seasons competition it would pass to them I believe.

Best we can hope for us that this drags out and City get banned from the following season so next year even 5th gets CL.

 

[RocketRonny]

How is FFP even legal sport doesn't operate under a different law does it ?

If I wished to use my money from one highly lucrative business to compensate for on going losses from another of my companies I could do that couldn't I? How can they change the law for football with out being in breach of the actual law?

Football is ran by FIFA\UEFA\and such which are a private associations that can create binding norms on those who wish to participate in their institutions and tournaments. FFP isn't a law in the sovereign way but it's a binding norm on any football club as there are no serious leagues and tournaments outside of the FIFA\UEFA\local FAs framework.

No one is forcing someone to buy a football club but if he does buy it and want it to play in the CL he needs to abide the rules set privately.

It's like buying a diamond cutting corporation but agreeing in advance to the trade rules the corporation signed in the past that bind it to internal arbitration between those who operate in the trade. You can theoretically stop your membership of the "guild" but then no one would no business with you

 

[LLB Part Deux]

Man Utd could get Champions league?

Outside chance I guess. Currently they have a lower UEFA club coefficient than we do (not by much) so I don't think their participation would influence our draw for the group stages. Woolwich on the other hand, have a higher UEFA coefficient as it goes back 4 or 5 years I think.

 

[superstaryid]

Football is ran by FIFA\UEFA\and such which are a private associations that can create binding norms on those who wish to participate in their institutions and tournaments. FFP isn't a law in the sovereign way but it's a binding norm on any football club as there are no serious leagues and tournaments outside of the FIFA\UEFA\local FAs framework.

No one is forcing someone to buy a football club but if he does buy it and want it to play in the CL he needs to abide the rules set privately.

It's like buying a diamond cutting corporation but agreeing in advance to the trade rules the corporation signed in the past that bind it to internal arbitration between those who operate in the trade. You can theoretically stop your membership of the "guild" but then no one would no business with you

Yeah but this is effectively being told what you can spend on your own business, i made a bit of research earlier and it seems there are a lot of experts who think UEFA would be overruled in a court of law.

I like the idea of FFP but don't see it standing the test of time.

 

[RocketRonny]

Yeah but this is effectively being told what you can spend on your own business, i made a bit of research earlier and it seems there are a lot of experts who think UEFA would be overruled in a court of law.

I like the idea of FFP but don't see it standing the test of time.

There are many limitations and regulations on how to spend on your own business. Antitrust Laws and regulations of publicly listed companies are prime examples. In this case we are talking about a restriction with consensual agreement of private entities so any claims would be even weaker.
I'm not sure who has the authority here and not an expert for European law, I assume it will have to go through Swiss courts first and only then the ECHR, but I highly doubt it will be struck down as breaching human rights.

edit:
superstaryid looking at the UEFA AOA, article 61 gives CAS (an international sport arbitration court) jurisdiction to adjudicate disputes between clubs and UEFA. I highly doubt that body would rule against FFP and I highly doubt a national court would not respect an arbitral award by it

 

[iz futbal]

Hasn't their owner already said (i might have read it here) that he would rather spend 30 million on a top legal team than give any to EUFA? They will get out of this ,and just receive a telling off.The financial fair play is a joke.it was never going to make a difference.
I hope i'm wrong, but...

The motive behind FFP was all wrong in the first place. It was aimed to keep the older established big clubs bigger just like the new 10 year coefficient nonsense to make it easier for the older big clubs in the CL. Sooner or later they will pass laws to make it difficult for clubs like ours too.

 

[superstaryid]

There are many limitations and regulations on how to spend on your own business. Antitrust Laws and regulations of publicly listed companies are prime examples. In this case we are talking about a restriction with consensual agreement of private entities so any claims would be even weaker.
I'm not sure who has the authority here and not an expert for European law, I assume it will have to go through Swiss courts first and only then the ECHR, but I highly doubt it will be struck down as breaching human rights.

edit:
superstaryid looking at the UEFA AOA, article 61 gives CAS (an international sport arbitration court) jurisdiction to adjudicate disputes between clubs and UEFA. I highly doubt that body would rule against FFP and I highly doubt a national court would not respect an arbitral award by it

Well I think FFP has been in play for several years so I guess it is somewhat legal , what i was reading was how some of FFP went against some fundamental freedoms according to EU laws I guess it has some grey areas

Hopefully City will be held accountable to what can only be described as cheating, personally I feel they will get away without any sanctions imposed on them that will actually harm them in anyway

 

[r-u-s-x]

How is FFP even legal sport doesn't operate under a different law does it ?

If I wished to use my money from one highly lucrative business to compensate for on going losses from another of my companies I could do that couldn't I? How can they change the law for football with out being in breach of the actual law?

You can do what you want but they can control who plays in their competition, is it any different to dictating supplements / sponsorships etc?

 

[r-u-s-x]

Well I think FFP has been in play for several years so I guess it is somewhat legal , what i was reading was how some of FFP went against some fundamental freedoms according to EU laws I guess it has some grey areas

Hopefully City will be held accountable to what can only be described as cheating, personally I feel they will get away without any sanctions imposed on them that will actually harm them in anyway

so does player contracts / homegrown etc. most sporting rules are a bodge to get around EU law.

 

[LeeMcl]

What really irks with all of this FFP is that it actually masks the real problem.

A country, yep an entire country “Sports Washing” on an unprecedented scale. And no one in any position of influence is calling them out ! Football is small fry to these people, they don’t earn money from football, but it gives them an taint of respectability they could not get from the reality of their society.

City cheated. And cheating in Sport is acceptable how ? Ask Ben Johnson, Lance Armstrong or Marion Jones what legacy cheating in sport leaves you with. That’s the gaze that City should get, when those of us with Sanity see them dancing about on Sky TV on Sunday our reaction should be nothing short of vilification.

beyond that dancing, is the smile of a ruling class that essentially counters what we recognise as of value to our free society, and for the sake of money all those City employees lose how much of their soul and turn a blind eye, and the Media too. It’s utterly ridiculous.

Is Pep a “legend” because he wins a sporting prize with every conceivable advantage to do so?

Or is Pep a two faced bastard who for money provides a mask of respect to a regime that kills homosexuals, imprisons women who elect to have an abortion, or can be so inhuman as to disallow a woman with breast cancer necessary treatment because she disagreed with the policy of the Emirati and let’s not worry about all the others who “forcibly disappear” should they challenge the rulers.

FFP is important, but City Group have gone way beyond rules to achieve what they have. Remember the threat made that they would ruin UEFA if they were punished. Even that got almost no traction, why ?

Money money money, Hey it’s all good. Stirling is a cracking player and here’s Noel Gallagher to sing us a nice tune, look the other way.

 

[B-0-Sspurs]

What really irks with all of this FFP is that it actually masks the real problem.

A country, yep an entire country “Sports Washing” on an unprecedented scale. And no one in any position of influence is calling them out ! Football is small fry to these people, they don’t earn money from football, but it gives them an taint of respectability they could not get from the reality of their society.

City cheated. And cheating in Sport is acceptable how ? Ask Ben Johnson, Lance Armstrong or Marion Jones what legacy cheating in sport leaves you with. That’s the gaze that City should get, when those of us with Sanity see them dancing about on Sky TV on Sunday our reaction should be nothing short of vilification.

beyond that dancing, is the smile of a ruling class that essentially counters what we recognise as of value to our free society, and for the sake of money all those City employees lose how much of their soul and turn a blind eye, and the Media too. It’s utterly ridiculous.

Is Pep a “legend” because he wins a sporting prize with every conceivable advantage to do so?

Or is Pep a two faced bastard who for money provides a mask of respect to a regime that kills homosexuals, imprisons women who elect to have an abortion, or can be so inhuman as to disallow a woman with breast cancer necessary treatment because she disagreed with the policy of the Emirati and let’s not worry about all the others who “forcibly disappear” should they challenge the rulers.

FFP is important, but City Group have gone way beyond rules to achieve what they have. Remember the threat made that they would ruin UEFA if they were punished. Even that got almost no traction, why ?

Money money money, Hey it’s all good. Stirling is a cracking player and here’s Noel Gallagher to sing us a nice tune, look the other way.

Good points.

It will make a mockery of the game if city do become the first English club to achieve a domestic treble.

Most football fans will just ignore it, like they did on Sunday. All clubs spend money but this is Man City, look at their honours list prior to 2011, they are a nothing more than a Nottingham forest or Derby in fan size. This is not a pop at genuine city fans but their honours are so contrived and hollow that bar city fans and a few half wits in the media, no one really cares.

 

[r-u-s-x]

What really irks with all of this FFP is that it actually masks the real problem.

A country, yep an entire country “Sports Washing” on an unprecedented scale. And no one in any position of influence is calling them out ! Football is small fry to these people, they don’t earn money from football, but it gives them an taint of respectability they could not get from the reality of their society.

City cheated. And cheating in Sport is acceptable how ? Ask Ben Johnson, Lance Armstrong or Marion Jones what legacy cheating in sport leaves you with. That’s the gaze that City should get, when those of us with Sanity see them dancing about on Sky TV on Sunday our reaction should be nothing short of vilification.

beyond that dancing, is the smile of a ruling class that essentially counters what we recognise as of value to our free society, and for the sake of money all those City employees lose how much of their soul and turn a blind eye, and the Media too. It’s utterly ridiculous.

Is Pep a “legend” because he wins a sporting prize with every conceivable advantage to do so?

Or is Pep a two faced bastard who for money provides a mask of respect to a regime that kills homosexuals, imprisons women who elect to have an abortion, or can be so inhuman as to disallow a woman with breast cancer necessary treatment because she disagreed with the policy of the Emirati and let’s not worry about all the others who “forcibly disappear” should they challenge the rulers.

FFP is important, but City Group have gone way beyond rules to achieve what they have. Remember the threat made that they would ruin UEFA if they were punished. Even that got almost no traction, why ?

Money money money, Hey it’s all good. Stirling is a cracking player and here’s Noel Gallagher to sing us a nice tune, look the other way.

As a country we sell arms to the Saudis, half of London is owned by Saudis / Chinese / Russians.

I think its unrealistic to call for sports regulators to have moral leadership when our leaders have no morals. In an ideal world they would not be allowed to be owners but how do you do this when our governments are not interested in this.

 

[LeeMcl]

As a country we sell arms to the Saudis, half of London is owned by Saudis / Chinese / Russians.

I think its unrealistic to call for sports regulators to have moral leadership when our leaders have no morals. In an ideal world they would not be allowed to be owners but how do you do this when our governments are not interested in this.

I’m not calling on Sports regulators to have moral leadership. They have rules and that is where their obligation probably has to stops

However I am calling on each and everyone who, outside of regulations, thinks that what goes on in that country and what goes on at City Football group is acceptable to consider what their blind eyes and acceptance is fuelling.

That includes our political “masters” who fail to deal with this issue year after year after year.

That wanker at Chelsea was bad enough but to Actually end up with this global entity is sickening.

Just pondering the legality of FFP itself. It’s probably not a legal issue at all but a competition rule. What can Shity actually argue if UEFA decide they breached the rules and UEFA don’t want them to play in THEIR competition ? Nothing surely.