Dele

[BernardMatthews]

I have a habit of watching a specific player for 10-15 minutes during games. It’s sonething you can only really do if you are there.

Dele has been a real nuisance for the opposition this season and often gets into great positions, but yes, he has missed good chances or as with Kane runs he makes will create room for others.

And like Kane I think by 24 he will be really firing.

However by then I think he will have been pushed out of the English game. Partly by the media, his agent and sponsors and of course ambition.

Enjoy him while we have him. He’s a talent.

 

[sammyspurs]

There are a few thoughts that come to mind with Dele from the past week.

Last season we saw Dele get sent off for a rash challenge against Gent, he was targeted by Juve and while he got a yellow, he didn't do anything stupid in the face of a great deal of provocation.

Also, in the hardest league in the world, a beautifully weighted final ball is not easy and just last week against Huddersfield there was a sumptuous final ball for Sonny to run on to which opened the scoring from Dele. I love the artistry of a good flick or nutmeg but the ability to create a defence splitting pass is something you can't take for granted this season.

Has he gone downhill? I don't think so, he's now a more 'known' element and so when you're playing Spurs you're going to have a better idea how to contain him and the threat he poses. That is a natural consequence and he will need to find ways to show he can still create chances and get in dangerous areas, I think he already is doing this to some extent too.

He's also getting more negative press and he won't win a penalty this season, even when blatantly fouled, I give you the foul at home to Manchester United where Dele was absolutely taken out and if it had been any other Spurs player the penalty would have been given. Not all of that press is wrong, he does go down too easy, I don't want to excuse that but also having seen Zaha or the worst offender Dwight Gayle, he's far from the only one doing it but it is a label he's going to need to shake.

This is what I don't get:
You say he hasn't gone down hill, then reel off three or four reasons for him not playing as well as last year. Which one is it?

You say he's become a known element.....isn't that a nice way of saying he's getting found out this season?
When I suggested he was running that risk early in the season people didn't like it, yet it's very much the case.

If teams know how to nullify him, and he doesn't evolve, he has been found out. Or become known....potatoe potaaaato.

For me that's not an excuse, Kane evolved when teams found him out. He evolves every time he plays.
Regarding Dele we are talking about a player who just 12 months ago was being linked with Real Madrid and people talking about 200M wouldn't get him.
Is it so outrageous to suggest he should also be able to develope his game.

Look at Davies.....improved from a liability at Anfield last year, to a player who nullified the likes of Isco and Ronaldo while beating Real Madrid. And what does he get for that? Labelled "bang average" because we didn't beat Juventus.

Football isn't rocket science. If you aren't getting better you are treading water, and if you are doing worse than last year then you going backwards.

People can list off every reason under the sun for Dele not playing as well as he can.
But the only thing that counts is the fact he isn't playing as well as he can.

Which begs the question, why is Moura sitting on our bench.

 

[78Spur]

This is what I don't get:
You say he hasn't gone down hill, then reel off three or four reasons for him not playing as well as last year. Which one is it?

You say he's become a known element.....isn't that a nice way of saying he's getting found out this season?
When I suggested he was running that risk early in the season people didn't like it, yet it's very much the case.

If teams know how to nullify him, and he doesn't evolve, he has been found out. Or become known....potatoe potaaaato.

For me that's not an excuse, Kane evolved when teams found him out. He evolves every time he plays.
Regarding Dele we are talking about a player who just 12 months ago was being linked with Real Madrid and people talking about 200M wouldn't get him.
Is it so outrageous to suggest he should also be able to develope his game.

Look at Davies.....improved from a liability at Anfield last year, to a player who nullified the likes of Isco and Ronaldo while beating Real Madrid. And what does he get for that? Labelled "bang average" because we didn't beat Juventus.

Football isn't rocket science. If you aren't getting better you are treading water, and if you are doing worse than last year then you going backwards.

People can list off every reason under the sun for Dele not playing as well as he can.
But the only thing that counts is the fact he isn't playing as well as he can.

Which begs the question, why is Moura sitting on our bench.

I think you're being too binary here, this is not a case of him being one thing or another- he gets found out, then he adapts and he finds a way around it, it's not Dele gets found out, that's him spent, let's go on to someone else.

It's more like the situation when you play a team who just defend deep, you can complain that your opposition is dull and destroying the game or you can adapt your game to create the chances to win. All Dele has to do is learn to keep his composure, refine his choices of passes and decision making and he will find a way, we have to give him time and opportunity to do that and let's be fair, it's not like he's doing a bad job right now.

Kane took a long time to evolve too, he was at Leicester and Millwall, he was written off by many people, including me, so having that experience I'm not comfortable sitting here and saying that Dele is incapable of further evolution.

Also Moura sitting on the bench isn't Dele's fault.

 

[Jurgen's Binnman]

We’ve got Alli
Dele Alli
I just don’t think you understaaaand

Sammy hates his guts
But I think he’s the nuts
We’ve got Dele Alliiiiiiii

 

[sammyspurs]

I think you're being too binary here, this is not a case of him being one thing or another- he gets found out, then he adapts and he finds a way around it, it's not Dele gets found out, that's him spent, let's go on to someone else.

It's more like the situation when you play a team who just defend deep, you can complain that your opposition is dull and destroying the game or you can adapt your game to create the chances to win. All Dele has to do is learn to keep his composure, refine his choices of passes and decision making and he will find a way, we have to give him time and opportunity to do that and let's be fair, it's not like he's doing a bad job right now.

Kane took a long time to evolve too, he was at Leicester and Millwall, he was written off by many people, including me, so having that experience I'm not comfortable sitting here and saying that Dele is incapable of further evolution.

Also Moura sitting on the bench isn't Dele's fault.

One I'm not blaming Dele for being picked, I'm questioning why people spent the whole of January pining for a player like Moura but now don't really care whether he plays or not.

Regarding Kane, he was written off out on loan. Since his PL introduction he has only evolved, which Dele also did for two whole seasons.

People seem to forget that. Most of these excuses would work if he hadn't been a better player for two previous seasons.

You say "all" Dele has to do is keep his head, improve his passing and start making better decisions with the ball.
While arguing he's playing ok. You just basically said that the crux of his game isnt good enough.

Sounds to me like you think he has a hell of a lot to improve on actually because they are all the things I have an issue with in his game too. But somehow you disagree with me that he's off the ball.

That's like me saying all Aurier has to do is stop lunging in and getting penalties and yellows, cross the ball better, learn to throw, and time tackles. But there's no reason to critique him.

 

[78Spur]

You say "all" Dele has to do is keep his head, improve his passing and start making better decisions with the ball.
While arguing he's playing ok. You just basically said that the crux of his game is t good enough.
.

No, I'm saying any player can improve, not that he's deficient, I'm not going to debate if every point is going to be twisted.

 

[Jurgen's Binnman]

One I'm not blaming Dele for being picked, I'm questioning why people spent the whole of January pining for a player like Moura but now don't really care whether he plays or not.

Regarding Kane, he was written off out on loan. Since his PL introduction he has only evolved, which Dele also did for two whole seasons.

People seem to forget that. Most of these excuses would work if he hadn't been a better player for two previous seasons.

You say "all" Dele has to do is keep his head, improve his passing and start making better decisions with the ball.
While arguing he's playing ok. You just basically said that the crux of his game is t good enough.

Sounds to me like you think he has a hell of a lot to improve on actually because they are all the things I have an issue with in his game too. But somehow you disagree with me that he's off the ball.

That's like me saying all Aurier has to do is stop lunging in and getting penalties and yellows, cross the balm better, learn to throw, and time tackles. But there's no reason to critique him.

Re: Moura - essentially we’ve been getting a lot of good results without needing to use him so far. And Poch has made it clear that he doesn’t think he is match sharp yet. I’m really looking forward to seeing the guy in action for us but I don’t think there is any big rush or panic to do so. He’ll get introduced gradually and will feature a lot more next season I suspect.

 

[sammyspurs]

No, I'm saying any player can improve, not that he's deficient, I'm not going to debate if every point is going to be twisted.

And here we go.

What the fuck have I twisted?

Here's what you said:

All Dele has to do is learn to keep his composure, refine his choices of passes and decision making
.

What did I twist?
His composure, passing and decision making needs improving. Right?
YOUR words.

So how the fuck is he playing well?

Oh don't bother, you don't want to debate and I've twisted it all. The standard fucking ending to a debate on Dele.

Jesus fucking Christ

 

[sammyspurs]

Re: Moura - essentially we’ve been getting a lot of good results without needing to use him so far. And Poch has made it clear that he doesn’t think he is match sharp yet. I’m really looking forward to seeing the guy in action for us but I don’t think there is any big rush or panic to do so. He’ll get introduced gradually and will feature a lot more next season I suspect.

Introduced at who's expense?
Sons I guess but no one gives a fuck if Son is benched though.

That's fine, despite being one of our best players all season......but yeah he smiles so it's ok.

 

[Jurgen's Binnman]

Introduced at who's expense?
Sons I guess but no one gives a fuck if Son is benched though.

That's fine, despite being one of our best players all season......but yeah he smiles so it's ok.

I don’t know at who’s expense, that’s for Poch to decide. Don’t assume that everyone here wants Son dropped, I don’t think that’s true in the slightest. I’m guessing we’ll ultimately see a shuffled pack utilising all of these players depending on the tactics required per game. I don’t think it’s as simple as “this guy has to be dropped for this guy”.

 

[Boltonspur]

I reckon Moura will start tomorrow.
And I think Dele will be rested.
I rate Dele very, very highly. But I’m absolutely dying to see a starting line up with Son & Lucas in it. Genuinely think that such a line up with scary pace & width will stretch & terrorise defences like Bournemouth. Lucas may not be 100% match fit yet, but the best way of getting him there is to regularly give him an hour or so of competitive football & build up from there.
Then let Dele loose when the oppo defence is punch drunk.
Let’s see how our man from Brazil goes when given a start.

 

[sammyspurs]

I don’t know at who’s expense, that’s for Poch to decide. Don’t assume that everyone here wants Son dropped, I don’t think that’s true in the slightest. I’m guessing we’ll ultimately see a shuffled pack utilising all of these players depending on the tactics required per game. I don’t think it’s as simple as “this guy has to be dropped for this guy”.

It's the same old argument mate......I asked 6 months ago. If you don't want Dele dropped then you either don't want one of Son, Moura, Lamela or Eriksen to feature. There's no other way around it. Someone needs to go for Moura to play, and I for one love his energy and despite our fine run, the season has now changed drastically for us.

We need to freshen it up at the front.
Our targets this season shouldn't be compromised to give one player time. Even more time.....he's been given two thirds of the season to improve, and only really done that marginally. Other people are still outperforming him in my opinion.

 

[sammyspurs]

I reckon Moura will start tomorrow.
And I think Dele will be rested.
I rate Dele very, very highly. But I’m absolutely dying to see a starting line up with Son & Lucas in it. Genuinely think that such a line up with scary pace & width will stretch & terrorise defences like Bournemouth. Lucas may not be 100% match fit yet, but the best way of getting him there is to regularly give him an hour or so of competitive football & build up from there.
Then let Dele loose when the oppo defence is punch drunk.
Let’s see how our man from Brazil goes when given a start.

Well this is the thing.
People would love to see Moura start alongside Son, but not many can admit they would be happy to bench Dele.
It's one and the same thing. Too much delusion about the whole thing.

People have got it into their heads that dropping Dele is a punishment and means you think he's shit.
Weird state of affairs

 

[78Spur]

What did I twist?
His composure, passing and decision making needs improving. Right?
YOUR words.

So how the fuck is he playing well?

Ok, to answer your point ridiculously aggressive point, I didn't say he wasn't playing well, he is playing well but can improve, you were twisting to suggest I was saying he was not good enough and that wasn't what I was saying, you were talksporting my point!

I don't get why you're getting so angry about a player who's earning his place and improving. He's not treading water, he's not stealing anyone else's place. Only a week ago he created a great goal, this isn't a distant memory.

Also I'm not adverse to benching Dele for a game or two, not one bit, if his form gives cause for that or he needs a rest, right now I don't think he does.

 

[Jurgen's Binnman]

It's the same old argument mate......I asked 6 months ago. If you don't want Dele dropped then you either don't want one of Son, Moura, Lamela or Eriksen to feature. There's no other way around it. Someone needs to go for Moura to play, and I for one love his energy and despite our fine run, the season has now changed drastically for us.

We need to freshen it up at the front.
Our targets this season shouldn't be compromised to give one player time. Even more time.....he's been given two thirds of the season to improve, and only really done that marginally. Other people are still outperforming him in my opinion.

But my point is that I don’t think that Alli or Son have to be dropped indefinitely to make way for Lucas. I think we’ll see a shuffled pack each game. We can start Alli/Eriksen/Son one match, Alli/Eriksen/Lucas the next, Lucas/Lamela/Son in another..... Teams like City and Chelsea offer shuffle their attacking players. It makes it harder for oppositions to predict our set up. Many Spurs fans have also complained that we have the same starting line up week in week out and that the players get tired. Having this bigger, better quality squad will help combat this. It doesn’t mean that any particular player has to be pushed out of the picture. All speculation on my part of course, but I think you’re being too black and white about it.

Edit: We May even occasionally see, when Kane needs a rest, Son pushed upfront as a number 9 with three AMs behind him. All good options to have!

 

[sammyspurs]

Ok, to answer your point ridiculously aggressive point, I didn't say he wasn't playing well, he is playing well but can improve, you were twisting to suggest I was saying he was not good enough and that wasn't what I was saying, you were talksporting my point!

I don't get why you're getting so angry about a player who's earning his place and improving. He's not treading water, he's not stealing anyone else's place. Only a week ago he created a great goal, this isn't a distant memory.

Also I'm not adverse to benching Dele for a game or two, not one bit, if his form gives cause for that or he needs a rest, right now I don't think he does.

I'm not angry at Dele, I'm getting sick of people taking such massive offense all the time to what I think is an extremely relevant issue regarding our team.

I would like to see Moura play. I think Son deserves to start every week, and I would not drop Eriksen. I also wouldn't drop Dembele from CM and if I dropped Dier it would be for Wanyama. So no room for Dele in CM either.

That means bench, which you are also ok with. Difference is that you think Dele is playing well. I don't and that's my reason I would bench him.

I don't know what your reason is for benching him. I wouldn't bench a player I think is performing.

 

[sammyspurs]

But my point is that I don’t think that Alli or Son have to be dropped indefinitely to make way for Lucas. I think we’ll see a shuffled pack each game. We can start Alli/Eriksen/Son one match, Alli/Eriksen/Lucas the next, Lucas/Lamela/Son in another..... Teams like City and Chelsea offer shuffle their attacking players. It makes it harder for oppositions to predict our set up. Many Spurs fans have also complained that we have the same starting line up week in week out and that the players get tired. Having this bigger, better quality squad will help combat this. It doesn’t mean that any particular player has to be pushed out of the picture. All speculation on my part of course, but I think you’re being too black and white about it.

Who said dropped indefinitely?
Not me

 

[Notabadsquad]

This is what I don't get:
You say he hasn't gone down hill, then reel off three or four reasons for him not playing as well as last year. Which one is it?

You say he's become a known element.....isn't that a nice way of saying he's getting found out this season?
When I suggested he was running that risk early in the season people didn't like it, yet it's very much the case.

If teams know how to nullify him, and he doesn't evolve, he has been found out. Or become known....potatoe potaaaato.

For me that's not an excuse, Kane evolved when teams found him out. He evolves every time he plays.
Regarding Dele we are talking about a player who just 12 months ago was being linked with Real Madrid and people talking about 200M wouldn't get him.
Is it so outrageous to suggest he should also be able to develope his game.

Look at Davies.....improved from a liability at Anfield last year, to a player who nullified the likes of Isco and Ronaldo while beating Real Madrid. And what does he get for that? Labelled "bang average" because we didn't beat Juventus.

Football isn't rocket science. If you aren't getting better you are treading water, and if you are doing worse than last year then you going backwards.

People can list off every reason under the sun for Dele not playing as well as he can.
But the only thing that counts is the fact he isn't playing as well as he can.

Which begs the question, why is Moura sitting on our bench.

Moura needs more time to adapt so that he can play the full 90 minutes, often on the same wavelength of his colleagues. It is coming.

Dele has had a season where his impact or game-changing moments have reduced but he is still a player I would much rather have within our squad and often in our team.

Between now and next season is only 4 and a bit months but if Pochettino stays I think Dele will be here for sure because he has not progressed enough in my opinion for Madrid to come in for him and no English club will pay the 100 million plus that Levy would demand.

I guess what we are seeing with Dele and Eriksen to a degree is the healthy question of whether they really are world beaters or are we expecting too much?

 

[Jurgen's Binnman]

Who said dropped indefinitely?
Not me

It seemed implied, but maybe I misinterpreted. If we’re not talking about anyone being pushed out of favour then I’m not really sure what the issue is! I think when you use the term “dropped” it implies that a player is pushed out of favour for someone else. I think we’ll see rotation.

 

[Jurgen's Binnman]

[QUOTE="sammyspurs, post: 1442311, member: 1046"]I'm not angry at Dele, I'm getting sick of people taking such massive offense all the time to what I think is an extremely relevant issue regarding our team.

I would like to see Moura play. I think Son deserves to start every week, and I would not drop Eriksen. I also wouldn't drop Dembele from CM and if I dropped Dier it would be for Wanyama. So no room for Dele in CM either.

That means bench, which you are also ok with. Difference is that you think Dele is playing well. I don't and that's my reason I would bench him.

I don't know what your reason is for benching him. I wouldn't bench a player I think is performing.[/QUOTE]

I have to say Sammy, I don’t think anyone is expressing “massive offense” at your points. People just have other views and appear to be explaining them perfectly calmly. I don’t think there is much need to get wound up about it.

:dierpochhug: