Champion's League? You're having a laugh.

[Éperons]

All I was saying was that sometimes you don't need just money to win, there are other riches to be found in integrity amd stability. and from that list I'd rather be more like wigan than the next citeh or chav sell out.

You can't make money and have integrity?

These are the top six (I think) wages of the PL since 2005 from Swiss Ramble:

Surely one won't argue that these six clubs have shared most of the domestic honours on offer since 2005. In fact, six clubs x eight years x three competitions = 144 slots:

Of those 144 slots, we have:

22 first place / cup wins (15.3%) (light green)
16 second place / runners-up (11.1%) (dark green)
20 third place / semi-final appearances (13.9%) (yellow)
27 fourth place / quarter-final appearances (18.8%) (orange)

Almost 70% of the time, one of the top six clubs in wages reached the quarterfinals of a cup (or better) or finished fourth (or better). And as you can see, it looks like the colours fade leftward, toward higher wages.

So, yes, it's great when Wigan win a cup. But I'll bet that, before Wigan smell silverware again, the top three clubs in wages will have won a handful of honours. PL titles for certain, and maybe the majority of FA/League Cups. The top three clubs in wages have 19 cup wins or titles over the past 8 years (so out of 24). 19 out of 24!

I'm not saying that paying the most automatically yields cups or titles—look at Liverpool and Woolwich, who, despite their wages, have I think three cup wins between them during this time period. Or look at City in 2010.

But I do take as a matter of fact that in order for Spurs to have consistent opportunities to win (not opportunities to win consistently), they need to have more money. CL is one way of doing that. More marketing is another. A new stadium is (hopefully) a third. None of these requires selling out to some uncaring foreign billionaire who wants a toy.

If all one wants from his or her club is occasional flashes of brilliance—a (somewhat) lucky, thrilling cup run, say, then we can continue as we are. Or, hell, we can slash wages and emulate Wigan further—even fighting a relegation scrap every season. But I don't think that we'll ever win the Premier League as long as we're sixth in wages. Being higher in the ranks wouldn't guarantee it, but it would sure make it more likely.

 

[tricky]

What integrity do we lose by coming top 4?

judging by a great many comments, quite a lot. The further dilution of any notion of loyalty between fan and player, in seeking to 'constantly upgrade' players at the drop of a hat, even if those player s ogt us to where we were.

The increasingly ridiculous fan base which pre-supposes to know better because once we attain 4th, all the following season then becomes about is 'sustaining 4th' because 'we then need the money'.

And many others which quite a few will see here as 'par for the course'.

tbh, this thread in part was about seeing who still gets the 'love the shirt' regardless, and who will forever caveat it in order for the ideology to fall within their own ideals.

And no, I very much doubt you will ever understand what I am talking about.

 

[Park Lane James]

Not sure if it's been posted - but if we win against Sunderland then we will have collected 72 points our highest total in the Premier League. Regardless of whether we get into the Champions League or not, that is a great achievement for a new manager who has lost about five key players through transfer or injuries from last season.

Well done AVB, I hope you stay here for a long time. You look like a meerkat as well which amuses me...

 

[chimaira]

Not sure if it's been posted - but if we win against Sunderland then we will have collected 72 points our highest total in the Premier League. Regardless of whether we get into the Champions League or not, that is a great achievement for a new manager who has lost about five key players through transfer or injuries from last season.

Well done AVB, I hope you stay here for a long time. You look like a meerkat as well which amuses me...

Eventhough I have been a little critical of AVB, I have to agree, that he has done a pretty good job. A little more stability next season, please (by that I mean we shouldn't lose to teams like Fulham and Wigan, especially at home).

 

[jimmyriggle]

To be honest it's not so much the champions league itself that's important to me. The fact we finally made it a few years ago was incredible. It was like being let into a locked room where you'd heard some amazing shit went down but never had a chance to experience it yourself.

But now finishing top 4 means ramming it down the throats of the haters. It now also means directly that Woolwich finally miss out like they were supposed to several times over.

Of course we then get more money to help balance the fact we either don't have a sugar daddy owner or a huge stadium and helps us finish above those teams in the league again.

Playing the odd game against a European giant is a bonus in my eyes for now, until we get good enough to actually compete for the trophy.

Will I be content with 5th place and 72 points? Sure. It's a good achievement. I also quite like the Europa league. Seems purer in its own way. But I will be over the moon to finish 4th ahead of Woolwich and potentially on level points with Chelsea if they also dick it up against Everton.

 

[Anthony Beale]

Similar to JimmySaville above, the only reason I want us to get into the champions league is because we've been improving for the last 10 years now, and I love the feeling of a Tottenham win, after the shit years. I don't wanna go back to the shit years. I like away wins

 

[pallmallpunch]

But now finishing top 4 means ramming it down the throats of the haters. It now also means directly that Woolwich finally miss out like they were supposed to several times over.

Exactly. Its not about the money (although the money will be useful). Its about pride.

 

[tricky]

Mancini - yet another example of when expectations become unrealistic or unsustainable. Integrity becomes lost in the ether. But tbf, the Chavs have been leading the way on that one for years.

 

[sammyspurs]

No one I can see (other than Greaves 57) wants us to be bought out by a shiek or russian "oil" baron.

We want to continue to be run the way we are, but either win something, or come top 4 come May.

Silverwear is off the menu, so top 4 it is.

 

[Éperons]

No one I can see (other than Greaves 57) wants us to be bought out by a shiek or russian "oil" baron.

We want to continue to be run the way we are, but either win something, or come top 4 come May.

I get the sense from the OP and from tricky 's subsequent threatening

this thread in part was about seeing who still gets the 'love the shirt' regardless

that this kind of middle ground, where we want the club to do well yet also be real to its ideals seems out of bounds.

I'll follow Spurs to the Championship (though I think this is a hilariously idle threat, since I'm nearly positive that I'll die before they get relegated), but I also see that the club has dreams of adding to the glory of the cups at White Hart Lane. And the way to get cups is to win the league or get to cup finals. And as I showed in the top post of this page, there seems to be a rather strong correlation between having a high wage bill and getting to cup finals/winning the league. If we want to be like Wigan and put our eggs all in one basket that shows up every two decades, well, that's one way of looking at glory. I'm more eager to have us in many, many finals.

I grimace whenever someone complains about Chelsea's and City's "bought" honours, since their wage bills are not so outrageously greater than United's, yet United's success seems to be all due to a great academy and Fergie. I tend not to hear, outside of transfer talk, much about what a financial powerhouse United are.

So I don't think it's at all not-love-the-shirt-y to want Spurs to follow United's model (save the red and the debt, of course). We're still a ways off, but we're building, and I can only be excited about this process, not fretting that somehow my cred will be tarnished by now liking a "big" club with CL aspirations (and, hence, disappointment when those aspirations are not met).

 

[Cripps14]

I don't see us losing integrity by finishing in the top four if we do it in the right way. Which so far we have.

We've not got some billionaire pumping money into the club, we've gradually improved since we had Santini in charge. I'm not saying the CL is the be all and end all of this club, but it's the natural progression for the club.