Ange Postecoglou

[Harrier]

Judging over a certain period of games is pointless anyway. Too many mitigating circumstances.

First 10? Amazing. 26/30 points possible. The best ever start to a Premier League campaign by a new manager and by Spurs. But some will have you believe it's because he was new, an unknown quantity and no one knew what to expect. Despite the league apparently consisting of the best coaches in world football and all the technology at hand to tell them what we do.

Next 5? Not so good. 1 draw and 4 losses. But again, injury ravaged. Emerson and Davies at centre back.

The following 16 after that? Pretty good. 10 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses (1 away at Brighton when we were missing Romero, van de Ven, Maddison, Bissouma and Bentancur and has to play Davies/Royal at CB). Highlight being a destruction of Villa away from home. We mustered up just over 2 PPG during this period. About 78 points over the course of a season.

Then the last 6? Well, we all know the results. But then we were playing the two best teams in the country (Woolwich and City) and two teams in which we never win away from home (Liverpool and Chelsea).

Ultimately, he'll be judged on a 38 game season. Not 5 games here and there picked and chosen throughout a campaign. And he's on course for getting 66 points, qualifying for Europe all whilst joining the club in the midst of protests, losing his best player, an unsuitable squad and dealing with an injury crisis I've never seen at the club before and probably never will.

Next season though is the true judgement. Because now he's seen it and breathed it. He has experience to go off and build on. He knows who's capable and who isn't.

How dare you come in here with a well rounded argument backed up by some research!

And lol at disagrees from the usual suspects!

 

[Kaz Hirai]

the clubs fragile in and out...ill make the guy who ducks headers and dodges duals captain! this guy is some sort of cunt. must be on a wind up.

Son is one of the longest serving players at the club, probably based on interviews the most liked and respected member in the group, he's one of our most famous players, and also one of our best players.

most managers would've made him captain last summer after kane went and lloris was out

 

[meaningless-friendly]

I think the season on the whole ha been acceptable, good even, on paper.

The fixture list that put this recent run together, and where it has fallen, has been unkind. Generally, if those results had been scattered around earlier in the season they wouldn't have felt quite as demoralising.

The failure to get 4th isn't down to the last 6 games, it's down to losing at home to Villa, taking 1 whole point from West Ham and Wolves, getting pumped by Fulham.

The big issue for me is not 5th, I'd have been happy enough with that at the start, I'm happy enough with it now. The problem is trajectory, that doesn't look good for us right now. We've spent all season mocking Chelsea, but come the final standings they could be ahead of us, even if we win Sunday and they're not, it's galling how close they have managed to get to us.

They're finishing strong too, that's a better position to be in, like in the play offs, you'd rather be the side finishing strongly and taking 6th than the side failing to get automatic promotion and finishing 3rd.

I agree 5th is solid enough to get Ange a second season. The doubt in my mind is trajectory, as you say. Outside of the first ten games, it's been pretty poor, even with players returning. Even then, I still said to give him next season.

But what I got from the presser was big time end days Jose/Conte. The "I'm great and you'd be great too if you just followed my lead." He doesn't have the track record to pull off that act, Jose and Conte won major honours. So instead, it just feels like deflection from losing games and making poor selection decisions. That's what has made me think that the trajectory isn't going to change and Ange ends up sacked after about 15 games next season.

 

[Herclueless]

I haven't suddenly become a fan. The blokes in over his head and doesn't have long IMO.
But that doesn't change the fact he's right. Small club mentality from within and from outside the club. We'll always be a small club with that mentality. It's childish, playground nonsense by immature people.



Like it or not, champions league football is huge for clubs. Massive. And I can tell you this for a fact, as I have seen PL player contracts, every player and member of the coaching team get's handsomely rewarded for qualifying.
Financials aside, club profile, attractiveness to players and sponsors, TV exposure, growing the fan base.
Like it or not - it's much, much, much bigger than winning an FA cup these days.
And there's probably a 50/50 shot Villa lose this weekend. They're stumbling now playing on empty. Palace suddenly look half decent and are getting results. Beat Liverpool at Anfield, stuff Spammers etc. There is a very real chance that a win against City and Sheff Utd would have seen us qualify.

And even a possibility that Arse bottle it against Everton at the weekend and a win Vs City wouldn't have mattered anyway. Arse were nervous against United. They'll be nervous against Everton IMO

That's where the pragmatism comes into it for me, I've seen us with CL qualification, it's never been the gamechanger we'd hoped. Ange has even said that qualification would have no impact on our summer plans.

The player contracts aren't for me to care about one way or another, that's for the players and if they cared so much about it then I'd ask where that passion was in the many games we've limply rolled over on prior to this one?

I really don't mind Europa next season, I think it will be good for squad development if approached right, and I'd bloody love to win it. Not everyone will feel the same and that's fine.

If it makes me a loser then so be it, but the joy of seeing Woolwich fail at the last will be much greater than the joy of seeing us pick up a very possibly meaningless 3 points.

On top of that, we're talking about having lost to one of the best sides the league has seen, we were always likely to lose anyway, if we'd have been talking about rolling over for Sheff Utd to somehow scupper the scum then it'd have been very different from a professional pride perspective.

 

[daveyboy88]

Son is one of the longest serving players at the club, probably based on interviews the most liked and respected member in the group, he's one of our most famous players, and also one of our best players.

most managers would've made him captain last summer after kane went and lloris was out

dont give a shit how likeable and popular he is, hes not a captain. a captain is someone who leads men and demands respect, sets examples! the only bloke we have at the club who actually seems to be captain material is romero. you dont give the armband to someone who visibly ducks headers and visibly avoids duals, then moan about how fragile everything is!

 

[daveyboy88]

Ange ends up sacked after about 15 games next season.

i hope it doesnt take that long. thats another year down the pan! but that doesnt matter, because we are losers anyway.

 

[Matt1882]

scum fans were happy to lose their final if it meant us losing ours in 2019...and i bet if barca were in the final of the CL and the mighty madrid were in the final of the europa they would want the same! thats what makes football the game it is! you take that level of passion out of the game and youll be left with what they are trying to turn it into. box ticking woke nonsense. daniel sturridge giving analysis using words like likkle.

But it didn't, did it? Them winning or losing had no actual impact on our game. And they knew that, which was why they said it.
If there was actually a sacrifice to make, they wouldn't have been so keen to say that.

 

[Matt1882]

That's where the pragmatism comes into it for me, I've seen us with CL qualification, it's never been the gamechanger we'd hoped. Ange has even said that qualification would have no impact on our summer plans.

The player contracts aren't for me to care about one way or another, that's for the players and if they cared so much about it then I'd ask where that passion was in the many games we've limply rolled over on prior to this one?

I really don't mind Europa next season, I think it will be good for squad development if approached right, and I'd bloody love to win it. Not everyone will feel the same and that's fine.

If it makes me a loser then so be it, but the joy of seeing Woolwich fail at the last will be much greater than the joy of seeing us pick up a very possibly meaningless 3 points.

On top of that, we're talking about having lost to one of the best sides the league has seen, we were always likely to lose anyway, if we'd have been talking about rolling over for Sheff Utd to somehow scupper the scum then it'd have been very different from a professional pride perspective.

Our entire CL history seems to have been in the lead up to, and immediate time after, the opening of the stadium.
We're 5 years in now. Every season in the stadium with as much income as possible should see us grow now.
There's no excuse not to. We'll struggle to even maintain a level without it. How many players have we lost in the past because we couldn't offer them CL football? Modric, Berbatov, Bale, and plenty more.

 

[Shadydan]

How dare you come in here with a well rounded argument backed up by some research!

And lol at disagrees from the usual suspects!

A post full of contextual analysis nonetheless, it seems like people are scared of context on here, seen it too many times.

 

[SpursDNA]

But that doesn't change the fact he's right. Small club mentality from within and from outside the club. We'll always be a small club with that mentality. It's childish, playground nonsense by immature people.

I know the media love the banter but fans don’t determine the mentality of a club. All fans can do is react to the direction set mostly by ownership or to a lessor degree a manager - and relative to our revenue, our owners won’t push the boat out - small club mentality. It’s great that our club is the most financially sustainable in the league but I'd rather have trophies. Our fan mentality is just a reflection of this.

City starting to win trophies had exactly zero to do with the mentality of the City fans and all to do with oil money. Newcastle starting to compete for Europe - 100% about change in ownership - 0% about mentality of Newcastle supporters.

And on the childishness, immaturity and nonsense. That’s football fandom init? If we were well adjusted mature adults - we’d be putting in an extra shift at work, doing financial planning, volunteering at a local charity or spending time with our families - instead of we’re obsessed with a game where 11 men in matching uniforms kick a ball around a pitch.

On a separate note, Ange should worry less about the fans and just do his job. Fans didn’t kidbap his family and tell him to lose the game. If you’re winner Ange then beat City and lecture from a position of strength. Dont lose 5 from 6 and then tell us how you’re winner and we’re not. Bit cringy if you ask me.

 

[daveyboy88]

But it didn't, did it? Them winning or losing had no actual impact on our game. And they knew that, which was why they said it.
If there was actually a sacrifice to make, they wouldn't have been so keen to say that.

what you on about? they was asked a question and answered it.

as i said. if madrid were in the same position regarding barcelona they would say the same. its what makes football great! the saudis are chucking billions trying to buy into the passion, they will never have it no matter what they spend! things like this is the reason why, its been built up over more than a century.

 

[TheSpurEst]

No, I think having big gaps between games can 100% affect match sharpness. You can't replicate game like situations in training. It's impossible.

Klopp and Pep don't moan at the amount of games. They moan at the schedule of playing mid week then lunch time on a Saturday.

It's not an excuse. But I don't think playing less games was meant to make us somewhat better performers or more competitive.



Who above us has had worse injuries than us?

Not interested in teams below us.



The solution is buying better players that suit.

The whole point of THIS season was nailing down the basics. Drilling that through the whole team through repititon over and over again.

By doing so, you see who's capable over a 38 game period. And by the end of it, you get rid of those who cannot do it and you're left with those who can.



See point above. Repetition. Repititon Reptition.

Postecoglou wants to change the entire culture of the club. He isn't going to know if the players are all in if within a few months, he changes it up.

He wants to see that if you're in an uncomfortable situation or a sticky moment, youre still going to try and play brave and not just pass it back or knock it long to get it away.

It's no surprise that now the season is coming to an end, he's likely got an idea of who has zero future here, who has and is now trying different things. The false 9 against City. Van de Ven at left back. Kulusevski playing LW etc.

Maybe that's the wrong way of doing things. But it's worked for him everywhere he's been. So I guess we should probably give him the benefit of the doubt.



I think my comments above tie in to all this tbh.

The season was a test for the entire squad. To see if they could keep up his vision for a season, when things got tough if they could keep it up, playing the same way, not shy away from it.

I reckon a fair few failed.

I cannot wait for the summer.

Ok, thanks for sharing your point of view.
I get what you generally mean and can agree with most of it. I only fully disagree with the part about pauses between games. It is universally accepted that having like a week to prepare for the game IS massively better than having game- two days - game- three days- game- two days kind of schedule that Europe+ longer cup runs would provide.

But I've got a feeling that top level football is results business.
And there is no room anywhere near the top, if it takes you whole season to understand basic things like "Kulusevski in this system is NOT suited to be a winger" or "Son skillset is not suited for build up play and attacking high crosses with headers". Such 101 things don't change with repetition. Also 90+% of us have seen that kind of trial-first year under Poch. He made adjustments much quicker in his first season too.

But we'll see. I really hope that club will bring in the targets that fit into how Ange wants to play and that we leave this pathetic and embarrasing run truly in the past. As you unknowingly pointed out in the first long post - other managers with such track records have been fired on the spot.

 

[Kid Chameleon]

We played beautifully against City and with the injection of some quality players we’d be contending for the title next year

Contending for the title might be stretching it a bit but I think we can definitely hope for decent cup runs and to be in and around the top 4. A title challenge might happen but we can't go into next season with any realistic expectation for it.

One thing we might have going for us is that a lot of heart might go out of Woolwich after having struck out twice (wouldn't surprise me if they finished 6th or something). We might be able to capitalise on that.

 

[Matt1882]

what you on about? they was asked a question and answered it.

as i said. if madrid were in the same position regarding barcelona they would say the same. its what makes football great! the saudis are chucking billions trying to buy into the passion, they will never have it no matter what they spend! things like this is the reason why, its been built up over more than a century.

I'm on about there being no actual trade off. Whether they won or lost made no difference to the out come of our game against Liverpool. It was all theory

 

[Matt1882]

And on the childishness, immaturity and nonsense. That’s football fandom init? If we were well adjusted mature adults - we’d be putting in an extra shift at work, doing financial planning, volunteering at a local charity or spending time with our families - instead of we’re obsessed with a game where 11 men in matching uniforms kick a ball around a pitch.

I have absolutely no interest in engaging with "rival" fans.
I have no problem being friends with them and going about daily life etc. But as soon as they try to involve "banter" I'm out. Not interest, don't care. I don't give it, so I don't tend to get it.

 

[Brian Fantana]

Exactly.

And fuck every cunt in here who keeps chirping ""Ange wants to win! You are just losers!" when the man himself has not been arsed about getting top 4 and has presided over a shit run of results and an absolutely pathetic set of results against our closest rivals.

In the cold light of day, this is all just deflection from an absolutely awful end to the season where a top 4 place was there for the taking, given the patchy form of Villa. It's not "changing the culture" or any bollocks like it, the culture is always good when these managers win a few games. As soon as the pressure comes, they look for anything to blame other than the way they set the team up.

Ange ain't the guy. I have done a 180 on him, I think we are just wasting time with him next season in the name of giving him a chance.

I hate to break it to you, but there ain’t a guy.

Nobody will make this club a success. Not without different owners anyway. The desire from the top to be the very best isn’t there.

 

[daveyboy88]

I'm on about there being no actual trade off. Whether they won or lost made no difference to the out come of our game against Liverpool. It was all theory

no, but their fans were willing to give up a european trophy...of which theyve never even won! just to stop us winning one thats more prestigious. thats actually far more of a sacrifice than our fans wanting to lose a game against city an give up FOURTH in the league to stop them winning the league. youre on about small time mentality from the fans.

 

[Tottenham Sean]

I'm on about there being no actual trade off. Whether they won or lost made no difference to the out come of our game against Liverpool. It was all theory

So surely a bigger reason for them to give it" we don't care about them" and want to win the EL?. But they didnt,they would still rather lose,than see us lift the CL trophy.

 

[Kid Chameleon]

Exactly.

And fuck every cunt in here who keeps chirping ""Ange wants to win! You are just losers!" when the man himself has not been arsed about getting top 4 and has presided over a shit run of results and an absolutely pathetic set of results against our closest rivals.

I'm not sure that's the right phrasing. What Ange said was that CL qualification wasn't a "Willy Wonka Golden Ticket" and that there were other things that were more important in the development of a successful team. I think the message was that the CL would have been great if we had got it but it wasn't the end of the world if we didn't.

Case in point, we qualified for the CL under Conte two seasons ago and did bugger all with it. Woolwich missed out on the CL and have made two title challenges since then. What does that tell you?

 

[Starks]

Ok, thanks for sharing your point of view.
I get what you generally mean and can agree with most of it. I only fully disagree with the part about pauses between games. It is universally accepted that having like a week to prepare for the game IS massively better than having game- two days - game- three days- game- two days kind of schedule that Europe+ longer cup runs would provide.

Momentum and confidence can be hugely beneficial to a team. But yeah, we can agree to disagree there.

But I've got a feeling that top level football is results business.
And there is no room anywhere near the top, if it takes you whole season to understand basic things like "Kulusevski in this system is NOT suited to be a winger" or "Son skillset is not suited for build up play and attacking high crosses with headers". Such 101 things don't change with repetition. Also 90+% of us have seen that kind of trial-first year under Poch. He made adjustments much quicker in his first season too.

I don't think it's taken Ange a whole season. He's been aware of our offensive deficiencies all season. But you're not going to get your number one targets in January.

But if you can get the other players who have a future here repeating it, it's second nature when the right components are in place.

Pochettino was still playing Fazio in a fucking high line come May of his first season mate.

But we'll see. I really hope that club will bring in the targets that fit into how Ange wants to play and that we leave this pathetic and embarrasing run truly in the past. As you unknowingly pointed out in the first long post - other managers with such track records have been fired on the spot.

I don't think the club is stupid enough to sack a manager who gets potentially 66 points in his first season in charge despite all the issues from start to finish.

There's been enough there for him to warrant a second as well as be backed. Let's hope he gets it.