100% Angeball, or adapt during the game? Which are you?

[Airfixx]

why do you think that??

it was 1-1 against 9 men and he played it....why would he change it at 2-2 with 9 men?

Cos at that later stage there'd have been an achievable result to cling to whereas playing 55 mins with 9 men and the likes of Dier & PEH at CB was never gonna yield the 1-1.

Tactically it was wild/brave as fuck to do what we did; but it was closer to working than the final scoreline suggests.

 

[kingdawson]

Cos at that later stage there'd have been an achievable result to cling to whereas playing 55 mins with 9 men and the likes of Dier & PEH at CB was never gonna yield the 1-1.

Tactically it was wild/brave as fuck to do what we did; but it was closer to working than the final scoreline suggests.

no i do not believe he would have done that and it was "closer to working" because chelsea kept fluffing their lines and missing opportunities galore until they eventually stopped fluffing their lines.

 

[Shotgunofmichalebrow]

It’s worth going back and reading this which I’m sure was posted in the summer and is a good summary of how his teams have played through his career (and broken down simply for people like me who need it).

It kind of goes against the notion that he won’t adapt the team and change how he plays. I’m starting to wonder how much of the “I’ll do it my way, mate” statements in the press are a bit of a red herring and diversion from what is going on and what will happen in the future.

Ange Postecoglou: Coach Watch - The Coaches' Voice

Ange Postecoglou was named Tottenham manager in June 2023. We assess his tactical approach with Australia and in two brilliant years at Celtic

www.coachesvoice.com

Which of his ex teams do you reckon we are now?

I've said this repeatedly. That I think a few people like my boy Richard Arlison are being played. The you must belive and its the only way, it's smoke and mirrors. Like all coaches Ange is adept at saying one thing and doing the other. He uses the press for the fans and the media and also I suspect for team dynamics. I don't think he is Marcelo Bielsa( who really is some kind of craze zealot out of The Name of the Rose . )

I think Ange will look to upgrade certain players quietly and without fuss move certain characters from untouchable to not fully trusted. He will alter the duties of the less creative of his fullbacks to be more mindful of the defensive shape and try to get more positional discipline out of the 6. All of this will be unheralded whilst he talks up this there's only one way we'll play guff. I don't belive at all in this fake binary where we are either at the opponents throat and open as a rusty door on a hinge in a sandstorm. Those are not the choices.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

People would have happily accepted the big defeat if we were playing the same football we did early on, but on a regular basis. The week to week quality of the football we're playing has been average to poor, despite one game a week and having an almost entirely fit squad of late.

It is mostly not enjoyable. So when you combine that with getting whipped 4-0 by an injury struck Newcastle team who have Emile Krafth and Elliot Anderson starting for them, the fanbase naturally aren't very happy. Shock.

And therein lies a massive flaw in your expectations, if you suffer a "big defeat" it's not going to coexist with the same kind (any kind) of decent football on show that you speak of, that's simply an impossibility (those type of games we HAVE seen namely when Villa beat us at Home, same with West Ham at home two games where we where by far and away the better side but lost, that's what those games look like and people lost their shit after these games, not me because I thought we played well and were the better side). Can you give ONE, just ONE example of a team playing a fantastic, enjoyable brand of football whilst they are getting pumped +4-0? I'll wait.

What was said when Klopp's Liverpool got pumped 7-2 by Villa, or 3-0 by Watford TWICE, or 4-0 by City TWICE, and then a 5-0 also, and us spanking them 4-0 too, there have been others by Brighton and Napoli and Barca too.

I've used Klopp's Liverpool because I think Angeball is the closest style of football to Klopp's. Both are massive high-risk approaches to each game, but from what I've seen Ange's football is even more high-risk than Klopp's.

The narrative early on is many of us who studied Ange to gain an understanding of what to expect at Spurs was one very common theme and that's during his first season we can expect a shellacking along the way whilst the team get to grips with his demands. Not a narrow loss but a complete tonking because of how he sets up.

What happened at Newcastle was a team that identified really, really well how to beat us. In essence, nullify our attack with a low block, but also press us high and aggressively by going man to man. Other teams (Everton x2, Brentford and Forrest) have also attempted to do this but haven't pulled it off.

Ange is NOT changing how we play/set-up, even if the team is not equipped with the personnel he needs to do it. He's not tweaking how we play based on who the oppo is (there will be obvious game-to-game strategies but not how we approach the game, this is fixed).

We play with two centre-backs and one sitting midfielder. It requires a strong "rest defence", so Son, Kulu, Brennan, Werner, or whoever is playing up top needs to win the ball back quickly if they lose it. Failure to do this means we are vulnerable.

So sorry your expectation is bollocks (but you know what, the ONLY example I can think of is us vs Chelsea, where we clapped our team off the pitch).

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

It’s worth going back and reading this which I’m sure was posted in the summer and is a good summary of how his teams have played through his career (and broken down simply for people like me who need it).

It kind of goes against the notion that he won’t adapt the team and change how he plays. I’m starting to wonder how much of the “I’ll do it my way, mate” statements in the press are a bit of a red herring and diversion from what is going on and what will happen in the future.

Ange Postecoglou: Coach Watch - The Coaches' Voice

Ange Postecoglou was named Tottenham manager in June 2023. We assess his tactical approach with Australia and in two brilliant years at Celtic

www.coachesvoice.com

Which of his ex teams do you reckon we are now?

He absolutely will NOT change his overall philosophy (which I like this approach). In the simplest of terms we play in possession with 3 players behind the ball, x2 CB's and one midfielder, everyone else is pushed ahead of the ball.

However, as you suggest he absolutely does change during a game, in order to manage it, there are numerous times when we are leading he brings on PEH for example, he does shore things up quite frequently in his substitutions.

But how we approach each game is the same (this will not include specific strategies, like who to press based on an identified weakness etc..).

 

[Airfixx]

no i do not believe he would have done that and it was "closer to working" because chelsea kept fluffing their lines and missing opportunities galore until they eventually stopped fluffing their lines.

A few good recovery runs and some superb goal-keeping kept that scoreline down as long as it did which is obviously what you're consciously relying on by not adopting a parked bus approach to that scenario.

Ultimately; he gambled 1 point against getting 0 or 3........ So early in the season; I have no problem with it.

.......Especially given Liverpool opted your preferred approach at the lane in virtually identical circumstances - yet with all three of VDV, Kounate & Matip dug deep! - and still lost.


The result of that game isn't what fucked us over... It was all the injuries and bans that came as a result of it.

 

[Shotgunofmichalebrow]

And therein lies a massive flaw in your expectations, if you suffer a "big defeat" it's not going to coexist with the same kind (any kind) of decent football on show that you speak of, that's simply an impossibility (those type of games we HAVE seen namely when Villa beat us at Home, same with West Ham at home two games where we where by far and away the better side but lost, that's what those games look like and people lost their shit after these games, not me because I thought we played well and were the better side). Can you give ONE, just ONE example of a team playing a fantastic, enjoyable brand of football whilst they are getting pumped +4-0? I'll wait.

What was said when Klopp's Liverpool got pumped 7-2 by Villa, or 3-0 by Watford TWICE, or 4-0 by City TWICE, and then a 5-0 also, and us spanking them 4-0 too, there have been others by Brighton and Napoli and Barca too.

I've used Klopp's Liverpool because I think Angeball is the closest style of football to Klopp's. Both are massive high-risk approaches to each game, but from what I've seen Ange's football is even more high-risk than Klopp's.

The narrative early on is many of us who studied Ange to gain an understanding of what to expect at Spurs was one very common theme and that's during his first season we can expect a shellacking along the way whilst the team get to grips with his demands. Not a narrow loss but a complete tonking because of how he sets up.

What happened at Newcastle was a team that identified really, really well how to beat us. In essence, nullify our attack with a low block, but also press us high and aggressively by going man to man. Other teams (Everton x2, Brentford and Forrest) have also attempted to do this but haven't pulled it off.

Ange is NOT changing how we play/set-up, even if the team is not equipped with the personnel he needs to do it. He's not tweaking how we play based on who the oppo is (there will be obvious game-to-game strategies but not how we approach the game, this is fixed).

We play with two centre-backs and one sitting midfielder. It requires a strong "rest defence", so Son, Kulu, Brennan, Werner, or whoever is playing up top needs to win the ball back quickly if they lose it. Failure to do this means we are vulnerable.

So sorry your expectation is bollocks (but you know what, the ONLY example I can think of is us vs Chelsea, where we clapped our team off the pitch).

Can you give ONE, just ONE example of a team playing a fantastic, enjoyable brand of football whilst they are getting pumped +4-0? I'll wait

Don't want to but in,I may have missed something, but isnt that exactly what we had Mat Lucas tweeting after the Chelsea game.

Oh cool I see you have added the Chav game to your analysis.

In essence I think you and I agree. Ange won't change philosophy but he will alter how we set about aspects of its implementation. I bet he is looking at what Newcastle did very closely indeed because it certainly did twart us spectacularly well. It depends on sides having the kind of players to do it but I can think of five off my head in the EPL that fall in to this category. That in a nut shell is why the EPL will be like no challenge he has thus far faced. That's five too many for us to uncut Ange our way to the title.

All the diligent types that did the trawl of his previous sides and what to expect ( I read all the Celtic and Yokohama blogs too ) may not be getting the inside scoop they think. Because if Ange is as savvy as he seems he will know he can't treat this merely a rehash of what happened before. It's what scientists call a logical fallacy 'So it was, so it must be.' I think(hope) he knows better.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Genuinely don't know. Up until about a month ago, I would have said that we were in a good position to take advantage of other clubs being cautious of FFP this summer, but we're posting larger losses than rivals (not alarming ones, but never good).

I think we'll do our purchases after some sales, but hopefully we'll at least commit to one important new player early on. Looks like we'll move along at least 3 or 4.

Going into next season without fitting the team around Ange's need would be a kick in the nuts. I don't think we necessarily need to throw money at him ("BACK HIM!") just sell a couple and swap out other players for better fits to this system.

I'm hopeful (but that's what kills you).

ONLY City is better placed in the market than us........................

This is what it looks like if the new PSR rules were to be introduced now (it looks almost identical for the current PL FFP rules)

 

[Airfixx]

There's some real conflicting narratives at play right now.....

Over the past 5/6 games many have commented that we are playing a more reserved, controlled style (with some complaining the we're too ponderous); yet we're back to fending off the "it's all too naive, reckless and inflexible" chatter again....... Which itself seems to have been re-triggered by a loss where, first and foremost, a large number of the players played badly.

 

[Starks]

He absolutely will NOT change his overall philosophy (which I like this approach). In the simplest of terms we play in possession with 3 players behind the ball, x2 CB's and one midfielder, everyone else is pushed ahead of the ball.

However, as you suggest he absolutely does change during a game, in order to manage it, there are numerous times when we are leading he brings on PEH for example, he does shore things up quite frequently in his substitutions.

But how we approach each game is the same (this will not include specific strategies, like who to press based on an identified weakness etc..).

I reckon we'll see adaptions to the way we set up in pre season and going into next season. But of course play with the exact same approach. Perhaps one of the full backs staying back or the 6 dropping into CB etc.

It's pretty much been said that this season was all about getting the players to believe in the style of play and getting them used to play this way and next season is where they'll be tactically drilled round that.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Don't want to but in,I may have missed something, but isnt that exactly what we had Mat Lucas tweeting after the Chelsea game.

Oh cool I see you have added the Chav game to your analysis.

In essence I think you and I agree. Ange won't change philosophy buy he will alter how we implement aspects of its implementation. I bet he is looking at what Newcastle did very closely indeed because it certainly did twart us spectacularly well. It depends on sides having the kind of players to do it but I can think of five off my head in the EPL that fall in to this category. Thar in a nut shell is why the EPL will be like no challenge he has thus far faced.

And I still think that's a misnomer due to being down to 9 men, but I can't think of another game EVER where the fans where appreciative of what they saw from their team whilst the scoreline represents a tonking).

 

[Richard Arlison]

I've said this repeatedly. That I think a few people like my boy Richard Arlison are being played. The you must belive and its the only way, it's smoke and mirrors. Like all coaches Ange is adept at saying one thing and doing the other. He uses the press for the fans and the media and also I suspect for team dynamics. I don't think he is Marcelo Bielsa( who really is some kind of craze zealot out of The Name of the Rose . )

I think Ange will look to upgrade certain players quietly and without fuss move certain characters from untouchable to not fully trusted. He will alter the duties of the less creative of his fullbacks to be more mindful of the defensive shape and try to get more positional discipline out of the 6. All of this will be unheralded whilst he talks up this there's only one way we'll play guff. I don't belive at all in this fake binary where we are either at the opponents throat and open as a rusty door on a hinge in a sandstorm. Those are not the choices.

What makes you think I'm not expecting exactly what you just said mate?

The biggest misunderstanding about Ange is what it means ton "only play one way".

It 100% doesn't mean that he doesn't adapt to his opponent, nor does it mean that's won't change the roles of each position in the team.

There is every chance that next season we see players in the same position but with very different responsibilities. The idea that Ange ball couldn't include a CB playing LB for solidity is obviously a myth, he just doesn't have a CB that he wants to use as a FB yet.

If you want evidence that his system can adapt, just look at the way he used wingers this year. we heard all year he wants his wingers wide and high but he's used inverted wingers much more than high and wide. He even signed Werner and used him as an inverted winger.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

I reckon we'll see adaptions to the way we set up in pre season and going into next season. But of course play with the exact same approach. Perhaps one of the full backs staying back or the 6 dropping into CB etc.

It's pretty much been said that this season was all about getting the players to believe in the style of play and getting them used to play this way and next season is where they'll be tactically drilled round that.

Possibly, but still think it will be the same (but absolutely he does adapt as seen with his subs to see a game out from a winning position, so maybe that's an early indicator).

The focus will be very much on getting in player profiles to enable his game. We are nowhere near accomplishing that, especially when considering adding cover/depth.

 

[Richard Arlison]

Do you know what will happen against gooner scum if we adopt the same tactics? playing a 3 of Rice, Jorginho and Odegaard with Havertz dropping deep....do you actually know what will happen if we start him again in the centre?

Let's find out but it wasn't that bad when we played at theirs.

Thing about the goons is that they also believe they are a proactive and dominant team so they aren't going to change who they are for us. They will try to outplay us and adapt what they do to how we play. Exactly the way we will approach them.

 

[LLB Part Deux]

Adapt during the game? Maybe - but often it doesn't work. You just encourage the other team.

Adapt to your opponent? Definitely. That is the problem so far with Angeball - it's good against teams who are relatively open, or even attacking. It absolutely sucks against teams who sit back and wait for you to commit everyone to the attack, because they end up winning the ball in a congested area and then punting it straight back at you with pace. Without VDV (minus Newcastle) making incredible recoveries and Vic pulling off wonder saves we'd be just above mid-table.

 

[Henry Hotspur]

There's some real conflicting narratives at play right now.....

Over the past 5/6 games many have commented that we are playing a more reserved, controlled style (with some complaining the we're too ponderous); yet we're back to fending off the "it's all too naive, reckless and inflexible" chatter again....... Which itself seems to have been re-triggered by a loss where, first and foremost, a large number of the players played badly.

The narratives are not mutually exclusive. Can both be true?

The ponderousness is there for everyone to see and (in my opinion) is a result of opposition coaches doing their homework (low block, spring into a quick attack) and a lack of options up front.

The so-called naivety is (again in my opinion) a result of is continually gifting the opposition the same chances - I’m thinking ball in behind the LB and set pieces.

 

[LLB Part Deux]

I bet he is looking at what Newcastle did very closely indeed because it certainly did twart us spectacularly well

If only he'd watched us vs. Newcastle before the game we might have won.

 

[Starks]

Adapt during the game? Maybe - but often it doesn't work. You just encourage the other team.

Adapt to your opponent? Definitely. That is the problem so far with Angeball - it's good against teams who are relatively open, or even attacking. It absolutely sucks against teams who sit back and wait for you to commit everyone to the attack, because they end up winning the ball in a congested area and then punting it straight back at you with pace. Without VDV (minus Newcastle) making incredible recoveries and Vic pulling off wonder saves we'd be just above mid-table.

It only sucks from a football watching aspect.

Teams that sit back and wait for us to commit tend to lose against us or very rarely actually beat us..

The best way to beat Spurs is to push high up man for man, force Vicario to knock it long and make sure you can win the ball back off us as quickly as possible when we're not set

An issue with that is not many teams are good enough at doing it. Newcastle are one of the best pressing teams in the league and executed it perfectly. Luton tried something similar but simply weren't good enough at doing it as an example.

What we need to do in that scenario is just continue to play brave. Don't knock it long. Play through the press. We're one of the best teams in the league at beating a press. So why we go long and try and bypass is beyond me and I refuse to believe it's Ange instruction.

The last sentence could be applied to any team though in some form. Vicario and Van de Ven are simply doing their job.

 

[Richard Arlison]

Adapt during the game? Maybe - but often it doesn't work. You just encourage the other team.

Adapt to your opponent? Definitely. That is the problem so far with Angeball - it's good against teams who are relatively open, or even attacking. It absolutely sucks against teams who sit back and wait for you to commit everyone to the attack,

Is that actually true though??

I'm willing to bet our points per game against teams that sit deep and counter is as good as it is against any other system.

It just feels worse as a fan to lose to that style because the contrast in styles is easier to recognize so we feel like we really know what's going on.

 

[LLB Part Deux]

Is that actually true though??

I'm willing to bet our points per game against teams that sit deep and counter is as good as it is against any other system.

It just feels worse as a fan to lose to that style because the contrast in styles is easier to recognize so we feel like we really know what's going on.

Lets see who we've lost against:

Wolves x 2 (sat back)
Villa (sat back)
West Ham (sat back)
Brighton
Fulham (sat back)
Man City
Chelsea

Not to mention only just scraping 1 goal wins or draws against other defensive clubs - like the 2 goals in injury time against Sheffield Utd.