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Yet on the flip side, you laud gaining 72pts even though we finished below 4th and failed our objective.
Oh, I thought it was only me who was so arrogant that I decided who's opinion counted or not....clearly you share my self righteousness.
And as for opinion, I guess it depends on if you value points over position.
Seeing as its first place that wins the title, and the top 4 that gets CL football, regardless of points gained, Id say that 4th trumps 5th.
If we finished 2nd on 88pts, and next year we won the league on 82pts, you would think that was a worse season.
Fucking hilarious.
Opinion:
a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
Fact:
a thing that is known or proved to be true.
As 72 points is better than 69, it is fact and therefore opinion is obsolete.
You severely have issues understanding how the league works I feel
4th is better than 5th
Fact
You severely have issues understanding how the league works based on the fact that you think points gained on last season counts for anything. We didnt lose out on CL football because we got less points than the years before.....as you say, we got MORE points. It meant nothing.
It was because we finished in a lower position.
:avbfacepalm:
A seasons success is determined by how well you compare to OTHER teams in that SAME season.
Not how you compare to yourself last year.
You are really confused
.....coupled with the position they finish in
I really have no idea what you are fishing for.
Ive presented my view, take it or leave it. Ive no desire for a 3 day twist and interogattion of it, hence Im trying, politely, to withdraw.
Yet you keep picking at it.
Ill not be replying again, I ask - again - that we leave it.
I liked
Lister
's post about redknapp's football memories's being a bit over-egged. How it led to a discussion about entitlement is a bit beyond me.
Still, his points that we often looked clueless in attack (even when we had a young Bale and Modrić) even under Redknapp deserve amplification. From the way people complain about AVB's style it's as though we were 1970 Brazil under Harry. Which is ludicrous.
His final season was insanely exciting. In the Autumn. When we were playing out of our minds and were on a title challenging pace. But even then, I recall riding the wave while also thinking it was unsustainable. Too many last minute goals (where previously we'd give them up). And some performances (young boys and CL group away trips) suggested that our league form was a bit overdone. Didn't we also tumblr out of the league cup after just one match that season as well?
Then we killed Newcastle. Or Saha did. And I challenge anyone to find Brazil 1970 in the subsequent performances. We got dicked left and right, ruined our title chasing pace, let the scum catch us, and looked bereft of answers, hoping Damião would save us next season.
Yes we finished fourth. It was great. But it was entirely on the back of an INSANE first half of the season. Harry's macro/quantitative achievements can't be denied (4th twice, CL 1/4s, etc.), but his heat comes from people's evaluating his reign QUALITATIVELY. "Free-flowing football", "Tottenham way", etc. Please tell me where you saw that in his final, say, 20 matches in charge. Because I didn't. I saw a club with difficulty breaking down relegation-level competition, relying on counter-attacks, and the like.
Sorry if this aspect of lister's over-egged post has been brought up, but I didn't want to browse through four pages of what I suspect was just "glory hunter! Fourth isn't good enough?" Followed by "lol wut"
Lister
's post about redknapp's football memories's being a bit over-egged. How it led to a discussion about entitlement is a bit beyond me.Still, his points that we often looked clueless in attack (even when we had a young Bale and Modrić) even under Redknapp deserve amplification. From the way people complain about AVB's style it's as though we were 1970 Brazil under Harry. Which is ludicrous.
His final season was insanely exciting. In the Autumn. When we were playing out of our minds and were on a title challenging pace. But even then, I recall riding the wave while also thinking it was unsustainable. Too many last minute goals (where previously we'd give them up). And some performances (young boys and CL group away trips) suggested that our league form was a bit overdone. Didn't we also tumblr out of the league cup after just one match that season as well?
Then we killed Newcastle. Or Saha did. And I challenge anyone to find Brazil 1970 in the subsequent performances. We got dicked left and right, ruined our title chasing pace, let the scum catch us, and looked bereft of answers, hoping Damião would save us next season.
Yes we finished fourth. It was great. But it was entirely on the back of an INSANE first half of the season. Harry's macro/quantitative achievements can't be denied (4th twice, CL 1/4s, etc.), but his heat comes from people's evaluating his reign QUALITATIVELY. "Free-flowing football", "Tottenham way", etc. Please tell me where you saw that in his final, say, 20 matches in charge. Because I didn't. I saw a club with difficulty breaking down relegation-level competition, relying on counter-attacks, and the like.
Sorry if this aspect of lister's over-egged post has been brought up, but I didn't want to browse through four pages of what I suspect was just "glory hunter! Fourth isn't good enough?" Followed by "lol wut"
I find it mind numbingly ridiculous that people think that last season was worse than the two before it.
"We we worse"
"Why?"
"Because we won more games"
The argument that it was more within our control would be ridiculous. The notion would be that for us to be at fault last season (over the one before), we would have had to have surrendered more points to the four teams above us, thus extending their advantage:
So, teams above would be - Utd, City, Woolwich, Chelsea in 2012-13, and Utd, City Woolwich in 2011-12
Performance against final placed rivals, 2012-13
W 3-2 Away vs Utd
L 4-2 Home vs Chelsea
L 2-1 Away vs City
L 5-2 Away vs Woolwich
D 1-1 Home vs Utd
W 2-1 Home vs Woolwich
W 3-1 Home vs City
D 2-2 Away vs Chelsea
Thats 11 points out of 24
Performance against final placed rivals, 2011-12
L 3-0 Away vs Utd
L 5-1 Home vs City
W 2-1 Home vs Woolwich
L 3-1 Home vs Utd
L 3-2 Away vs City
L 5-2 Away vs Woolwich
That's 3 points out of 18. Including Chelsea for fairness, 2 draws, so 5 out of 24. One of which against a man people laud to be useless at managing.
You might notice we lost big time against Woolwich and City, shipping 5 goals that season too, both wins and losses exactly the same against Woolwich in both seasons.
Now, in light of what was in control for the team to achieve and have any influence over (i.e. taking points off those above us), we did better last season than the one before.
No one is saying 2011-12 was a terrible season, or Harry was a terrible manager but what you need to recognise was that last season was our best in terms of points obtained, especially against top 4 'rivals'.
I cannot see any possible way to argue that, from what we were able to control, last season was our most successful. We can't control what the other teams do in their other games, so it's stupid to argue otherwise.
"We we worse"
"Why?"
"Because we won more games"
The argument that it was more within our control would be ridiculous. The notion would be that for us to be at fault last season (over the one before), we would have had to have surrendered more points to the four teams above us, thus extending their advantage:
So, teams above would be - Utd, City, Woolwich, Chelsea in 2012-13, and Utd, City Woolwich in 2011-12
Performance against final placed rivals, 2012-13
W 3-2 Away vs Utd
L 4-2 Home vs Chelsea
L 2-1 Away vs City
L 5-2 Away vs Woolwich
D 1-1 Home vs Utd
W 2-1 Home vs Woolwich
W 3-1 Home vs City
D 2-2 Away vs Chelsea
Thats 11 points out of 24
Performance against final placed rivals, 2011-12
L 3-0 Away vs Utd
L 5-1 Home vs City
W 2-1 Home vs Woolwich
L 3-1 Home vs Utd
L 3-2 Away vs City
L 5-2 Away vs Woolwich
That's 3 points out of 18. Including Chelsea for fairness, 2 draws, so 5 out of 24. One of which against a man people laud to be useless at managing.
You might notice we lost big time against Woolwich and City, shipping 5 goals that season too, both wins and losses exactly the same against Woolwich in both seasons.
Now, in light of what was in control for the team to achieve and have any influence over (i.e. taking points off those above us), we did better last season than the one before.
No one is saying 2011-12 was a terrible season, or Harry was a terrible manager but what you need to recognise was that last season was our best in terms of points obtained, especially against top 4 'rivals'.
I cannot see any possible way to argue that, from what we were able to control, last season was our most successful. We can't control what the other teams do in their other games, so it's stupid to argue otherwise.
Yes.... of which we won more games, got more points and, as above, gained more points against our positional opposition.
aulinhofacepalm:We gained less points than the amount of teams we needed to finish above to achieve our target. So we failed.
When we finished 4th, we gained more points than the team that finished 5th. So we succeeded.
Tottenham do not compete against Tottenham.
You have a major issue accepting that.
You are either stubborn as hell, or have difficulty understanding things.
If you put all of Harry's results from 2011-12 into the 2012-13 season, all th would happen is we'd finish 5th and the top 4 would have had been further away.
Therefore, we performed worse as a team that season.
Thank you for that. Sums my thoughts up nicely. Seems the melting thread really did reach critical mass while I was asleep.I liked
Still, his points that we often looked clueless in attack (even when we had a young Bale and Modrić) even under Redknapp deserve amplification. From the way people complain about AVB's style it's as though we were 1970 Brazil under Harry. Which is ludicrous.
His final season was insanely exciting. In the Autumn. When we were playing out of our minds and were on a title challenging pace. But even then, I recall riding the wave while also thinking it was unsustainable. Too many last minute goals (where previously we'd give them up). And some performances (young boys and CL group away trips) suggested that our league form was a bit overdone. Didn't we also tumblr out of the league cup after just one match that season as well?
Then we killed Newcastle. Or Saha did. And I challenge anyone to find Brazil 1970 in the subsequent performances. We got dicked left and right, ruined our title chasing pace, let the scum catch us, and looked bereft of answers, hoping Damião would save us next season.
Yes we finished fourth. It was great. But it was entirely on the back of an INSANE first half of the season. Harry's macro/quantitative achievements can't be denied (4th twice, CL 1/4s, etc.), but his heat comes from people's evaluating his reign QUALITATIVELY. "Free-flowing football", "Tottenham way", etc. Please tell me where you saw that in his final, say, 20 matches in charge. Because I didn't. I saw a club with difficulty breaking down relegation-level competition, relying on counter-attacks, and the like.
Sorry if this aspect of lister's over-egged post has been brought up, but I didn't want to browse through four pages of what I suspect was just "glory hunter! Fourth isn't good enough?" Followed by "lol wut"
But in the real world, you dont time travel and swap seasons.
A Liverpool fan on F365 Forum summed it up perfectly when he said:
"Only Spurs fans could see finishing 5th, after finishing 4th as progression"
So embarrassingly true
Winning the league with 70 points is a far greater achievement than coming second with 85
I can't agree with you there mate. Gaining 72 points was all very well and good but we still finished below Woolwich. We still didn't have a poor season by anyone's imagination, though.
How anyone cant see that is beyond me.....he would think the runner up season was better.
Jesus wept