West Ham v Tottenham Hotspur | Premier League | Tues 2nd April | 8:15pm

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This Newcastle fixture should be a lot more winnable than what it was a month ago. We have a virtual fully fit squad and they are decimated by injuries, and Trippier aside, it seems none of them will be back fit in next 10 days.

Trippier been confirmed to be out for further 3 weeks.

Their back four against us is likely to be Krafth, Schar, Burn and Hall.

They can't low block very well and as you say, decimate by injuries. They also concede goals for fun.

West Ham away is never easy for us, regardless of their form. You can be glad with a point. Newcastle away though looking at both teams, style of play etc - I'd be unhappy if we went away with anything but 3 points.
 
I missed the game last night but reports say a draw was a fair result and the ref was shit.

A fair assessment?
Yep.

The ref was the usual nonsense of not booking West Ham for anything so they could kick the shit out of us and not giving us blatent fouls despite being 2 feet away from the action.

We had all the possession, lots of tippy tappy, lots of huff and puff but created very little. Nobody wanted to shoot and we were Vampire FC - Afraid of crosses.

West Ham played like the Dog and Trumpet, big hoof at every opportunity to Antonio or Bowen who were willing runners. Looked to capitalise on us giving the ball away cheaply which we obliged on several times, and of course scored from a set piece. Which is what everyone knew would happen.

The sad thing is they probably had the better chances in a game we dictated the pace of.

You didn't miss much.
 
IMO. we started well last night. 15-20 minutes we looked on top and direct.
After that though, same old boring shit.

I'm bored. We are boring. Having the ball a lot isn't "attacking" football. They had 32% possession, and had 2 less shots and the same on target. And arguably had better chances.
We tippy tappy all the way or at least seemed to be till we reached the 6yrd box then we thought we’ll place it in the net! Why no just shoot we had covering defenders if we lost the ball hit the feckin thing okay could have landed in row Z but a deflection could have ended up in the back of their net.
 
IMO. we started well last night. 15-20 minutes we looked on top and direct.
After that though, same old boring shit.

I'm bored. We are boring. Having the ball a lot isn't "attacking" football. They had 32% possession, and had 2 less shots and the same on target. And arguably had better chances.

I think you are bored of football in general. And I get that.

We are going to play against teams with 11 behind the ball most weeks now. There will be plenty of days where we need to find a way to win instead of destroying them with free flowing football. It's not 100% within our control.

That doesn't mean that the final 3rd wasn't disjointed last night because it was but the nature of us having possession and probing to find a gap... that's not going to change much.
 
We tippy tappy all the way or at least seemed to be till we reached the 6yrd box then we thought we’ll place it in the net! Why no just shoot we had covering defenders if we lost the ball hit the feckin thing okay could have landed in row Z but a deflection could have ended up in the back of their net.
Agreed. The difference between us and the likes of Liverpool/Woolwich (apart from player quality) is that when they get in and around the box they vary it. There is a lot of probing with the tippy tappy stuff that we do, but they also aren't afraid to try a shot or just fizz something across the box. These teams score so many deflected goals that you think they are really jammy sides but its because they just keep peppering away at goal.
 
I don't really understand how this season has been a 'slog'? We're 8 months into a new team, new manager, new style of play after however many years of counter attack football which the majority of fans moaned about too. We're 5th in the league, some posters thought we wouldn't even finish in the top half this season.

Also, the comparison to Woolwich is ridiculous. How many years has Arteta been at Woolwich and where did they finish in his first season?
There you go, mitigating...

How many months until it is acceptable to be critical then? Before we are allowed to moan about labouring to a 2-1 at home to a depleted Luton without having "3 points! 3 Points! It's all about the points at this stage of the season!*" thrown back at you?

Why does time in the job matter at all in this respect? If I look at the two squads I don't think there is much difference talent wise now, with my Spurs tinted specs I'd probably claim us better in many departments. So why should we accept grinding out points against sides that they are sweeping aside with ease? Because Arteta's been there longer? So? Football isn't some linear trajectory where if you just wait long enough everything just improves consistently, Arteta having 3 years behind him whilst Ange has not had a full one yet has no impact on the comparable squad strength as it stands today.

The "only 8 months in" mantra only really works as a defence whilst things can be seen to be improving, but right now we seem to be regressing. I'm starting to wonder whether things at the beginning of the season were actually only exciting because the players didn't know exactly what they were doing in the new system, leading to some exciting chaos ball at times.

What we are seeing now is just as boring as the boring football under Conte/Mourinho, it just seems a bit more palatable because we have the ball, so we can just whinge and moan that it's the other side's fault for being defensive.

You want to know why it's been a slog? Go and look back over the season's results, how many of those matches have you enjoyed watching? I'm not talking about being happy with the result at the final whistle, I mean actually enjoyed the 90 minutes?

It's subjective I guess, but I'll go back a little way from the present with my views:

West Ham - did not enjoy
Luton - did not enjoy
Fulham - did not enjoy
Villa - enjoyed
Palace - Could only follow on the BBC website, did not enjoy following the predictable 0-0 for ages and going a goal down though tbh...
Wolves - did not enjoy
Brighton - did not enjoy
Everton - did not enjoy
Brentford - did not enjoy
City (FA Cup) - did not enjoy
Man Utd - meh, seeing their results either side of this fixture it's difficult to come away from this without feeling disappointed. If we are where we think we are then we should have been schooling them and ultimately we didn't.
Burnley (FA Cup) - did not enjoy
Bournemouth - Another meh, there was more to enjoy than not iirc but at the end we gave up a goal, and then another which was chalked off for a dubious offside. About 2/3s of this game I would say it was really good but the end was more nervy than it should have been. I'll say enjoyed but there's a big asterisk, it probably wouldn't bother me if not for the fact that this winning by the skin of our teeth habit has been so prevalent throughout the rest of the season.
Brighton - did not enjoy
Everton - Similar to the Bournemouth one above, we were looking decent for a bit but then instead of keeping at them we just lost the initiative, but for a much bigger portion of the game in this case. Outside of a pretty fast start this was not an enjoyable watch.
Forest - Enjoyed, not exactly free flowing but a good solid away win.
Newcastle - Enjoyed, actually had forgotten about this one tbf, minor gripe is that I wish we'd kept going and smashed them by more because I can't stand them...
West Ham - did not enjoy.
City - Enjoyed, perhaps swayed by lack of expectation and last minute scenes...
Villa - Enjoyed, despite the result we played really well and should have been out of sight
Chelsea - Can't really grade it, came away feeling positive in a way, but also we lost 4-1 and a bunch of players from a position of being 1-0 up and in total control, feel like we lost this more than they won it.

I'll stop there because I think I've illustrated my point, the losses have been as annoying as a loss is ever going to be obviously, but the wins have been irritatingly tight for the most part. There have been things to enjoy throughout obviously, but not consistently enough, and mostly I've come away feeling relieved rather than pleased.



*It's amazing how this is apparently valid at every stage of the season btw...
 
The most annoying thing about last night is that - like Fulham away - this was a game we could rightfully go for all three points, and properly close the gap on 4th.

What dropping 5 points in both games has done, is make the last 8 games even more crucial... and you've all seen who we have in the last 8 games!

Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle (a) Arse/Mam City (h)
Sandwiched in between Forest, Burnley and Sheffield Utd.

5 of those games we could easily (and probably will) drop points... and as we've already shown this season, we can't even take games like Forest/Burnley or Sheffield Utd for granted either!

I'd hate to be going into ANY of those BIG games HAVING to win, but it looks like we're gonna have to win some of them...
It's just put unnecessary pressure on ourselves.... But we can handle pressure, right....? RIGHT???!!

Right now, if I knew we'd beat Newcastle and Chelsea away, and at LEAST take points off the Arse at home, I'd quite happily see us lose against either City or Liverpool, if it means we don't give Arse any advantage. But none of those games are a given...

Nightmare scenario for me would be HAVING to beat City at home in the rearranged fixture, to secure CL football, whilst at the same time handing the Arse the title!

Dark days indeed!
 
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I think you are bored of football in general. And I get that.

We are going to play against teams with 11 behind the ball most weeks now. There will be plenty of days where we need to find a way to win instead of destroying them with free flowing football. It's not 100% within our control.

That doesn't mean that the final 3rd wasn't disjointed last night because it was but the nature of us having possession and probing to find a gap... that's not going to change much.
We are going to come up against teams sitting in most weeks so we need to recruit wisely and get front players that can play with their back to goal and play in tight spaces who can create and make chances for themselves. We have fast players that can’t hold the ball up and link well but want to come short and play in front of teams! It’s ludicrous!
Recruitment is massive this summer for those front areas or we stand still and continue to be a 4th/5th or 6th place team.
 
The most annoying thing about last night is that - like Fulham away - this was a game we could rightfully go for all three points, and properly close the gap on 4th.

What dropping 5 points in both games has done, is make the last 8 games even more crucial... and you've all seen who we have in the last 8 games!

Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle (a) Arse/Mam City (h)
Sandwiched in between Forest, Burnley and Sheffield Utd.

5 of those games we could easily (and probably will) drop points... and as we've already shown this season, we can't even take games like Forest/Burnley or Sheffield Utd for granted either!

I'd hate to be going into ANY of those BIG games HAVING to win, but it looks like we're gonna have to win some of them...

Right now, if we knew we'd beat Newcastle and Chelsea away, and at LEAST take points off the Arse at home, I'd quite happily see us lose against either City or Liverpool, if it means we don't give Arse any advantage.

Nightmare scenario for me would be HAVING to beat City at home in the rearranged fixture, to secure CL football, whilst at the same time handing the Arse the title!

Dark days indeed!

Dark days lol

This place is hilarious man
 
There you go, mitigating...

How many months until it is acceptable to be critical then? Before we are allowed to moan about labouring to a 2-1 at home to a depleted Luton without having "3 points! 3 Points! It's all about the points at this stage of the season!*" thrown back at you?

Why does time in the job matter at all in this respect? If I look at the two squads I don't think there is much difference talent wise now, with my Spurs tinted specs I'd probably claim us better in many departments. So why should we accept grinding out points against sides that they are sweeping aside with ease? Because Arteta's been there longer? So? Football isn't some linear trajectory where if you just wait long enough everything just improves consistently, Arteta having 3 years behind him whilst Ange has not had a full one yet has no impact on the comparable squad strength as it stands today.

The "only 8 months in" mantra only really works as a defence whilst things can be seen to be improving, but right now we seem to be regressing. I'm starting to wonder whether things at the beginning of the season were actually only exciting because the players didn't know exactly what they were doing in the new system, leading to some exciting chaos ball at times.

What we are seeing now is just as boring as the boring football under Conte/Mourinho, it just seems a bit more palatable because we have the ball, so we can just whinge and moan that it's the other side's fault for being defensive.

You want to know why it's been a slog? Go and look back over the season's results, how many of those matches have you enjoyed watching? I'm not talking about being happy with the result at the final whistle, I mean actually enjoyed the 90 minutes?

It's subjective I guess, but I'll go back a little way from the present with my views:

West Ham - did not enjoy
Luton - did not enjoy
Fulham - did not enjoy
Villa - enjoyed
Palace - Could only follow on the BBC website, did not enjoy following the predictable 0-0 for ages and going a goal down though tbh...
Wolves - did not enjoy
Brighton - did not enjoy
Everton - did not enjoy
Brentford - did not enjoy
City (FA Cup) - did not enjoy
Man Utd - meh, seeing their results either side of this fixture it's difficult to come away from this without feeling disappointed. If we are where we think we are then we should have been schooling them and ultimately we didn't.
Burnley (FA Cup) - did not enjoy
Bournemouth - Another meh, there was more to enjoy than not iirc but at the end we gave up a goal, and then another which was chalked off for a dubious offside. About 2/3s of this game I would say it was really good but the end was more nervy than it should have been. I'll say enjoyed but there's a big asterisk, it probably wouldn't bother me if not for the fact that this winning by the skin of our teeth habit has been so prevalent throughout the rest of the season.
Brighton - did not enjoy
Everton - Similar to the Bournemouth one above, we were looking decent for a bit but then instead of keeping at them we just lost the initiative, but for a much bigger portion of the game in this case. Outside of a pretty fast start this was not an enjoyable watch.
Forest - Enjoyed, not exactly free flowing but a good solid away win.
Newcastle - Enjoyed, actually had forgotten about this one tbf, minor gripe is that I wish we'd kept going and smashed them by more because I can't stand them...
West Ham - did not enjoy.
City - Enjoyed, perhaps swayed by lack of expectation and last minute scenes...
Villa - Enjoyed, despite the result we played really well and should have been out of sight
Chelsea - Can't really grade it, came away feeling positive in a way, but also we lost 4-1 and a bunch of players from a position of being 1-0 up and in total control, feel like we lost this more than they won it.

I'll stop there because I think I've illustrated my point, the losses have been as annoying as a loss is ever going to be obviously, but the wins have been irritatingly tight for the most part. There have been things to enjoy throughout obviously, but not consistently enough, and mostly I've come away feeling relieved rather than pleased.



*It's amazing how this is apparently valid at every stage of the season btw...
Why do we have this god defined right to expect to roll over every single team we play before we have even kicked off, it's something I've noticed with this fanbase that before games fans will predict 'we're gonna win 5-0', that doesn't happen then fans starting whinging and moaning. How many teams have actually battered Luton this season for example? So why do you think we 'laboured' to a result against them?

If Ange was having no impact on this side say next time this season I'd understand your concerns but I think it's absolutely ridiculous that you have the questions you do about where we are currently.

Why does time in a job have an impact?
Isn't it a coincidence that the three best teams in the league currently have three of the longest serving managers. Guardiola finished 4th in his first season, getting battered 4-0 at Everton. Klopp finished 8th? Arteta 8th too I think. We're 5th this season, where do you think we would finish at the start of the season?

The start of the season form was the worst thing that could have happened because it's messed up fans expectations.

I've actually enjoyed this season, I've enjoyed watching a much more likeable set of players, the football is much better even if parts of it can be worked on, the atmosphere around the club is much better and the manager we have isn't moaning about things and making excuses in every interview.
 
I think you are bored of football in general. And I get that.

We are going to play against teams with 11 behind the ball most weeks now. There will be plenty of days where we need to find a way to win instead of destroying them with free flowing football. It's not 100% within our control.

That doesn't mean that the final 3rd wasn't disjointed last night because it was but the nature of us having possession and probing to find a gap... that's not going to change much.
No,

It is boring.

And you will get there too, eventually.


I actually prefer quick, counter attacking football to this fucking shite.
Give me Jolball or Harryball.
 
Dark days lol

This place is hilarious man
No I know what you mean
.... I was talking more of the scenario where WE have to win a game that may well hand the Arse the title...

In a season with such positive change (which I still believe it is) it would be just like us to watch the Woolwich skip away with the title, and tarnish ANY good memories we have of Ange's first season...

But I've no doubt, that NEXT season could see a seismic North London shift, which sees US and Woolwich going for to toe like Liverpool/Everton in the '80s or Man Utd/Man City a few years back....

As much as I despise the Arse, I'd take THAT titanic head-to-head challenge on with relish!
 
No I know what you mean
.... I was talking more of the scenario where WE have to win a game that may well hand the Arse the title...

In a season with such positive change (which I still believe it is) it would be just like us to watch the Woolwich skip away with the title, and tarnish ANY good memories we have of Ange's first season...

But I've no doubt, that NEXT season could see a seismic North London shift, which sees US and Woolwich going for to toe like Liverpool/Everton in the '80s or Man Utd/Man City a few years back....

As much as I despise the Arse, I'd take THAT titanic head-to-head challenge on with relish!

Well we play them in a few weeks anyway so we have their destiny in our hands regardless, win that and we don't need to worry about what we do against others.
 
Why do we have this god defined right to expect to roll over every single team we play before we have even kicked off, it's something I've noticed with this fanbase that before games fans will predict 'we're gonna win 5-0', that doesn't happen then fans starting whinging and moaning. How many teams have actually battered Luton this season for example? So why do you think we 'laboured' to a result against them?

If Ange was having no impact on this side say next time this season I'd understand your concerns but I think it's absolutely ridiculous that you have the questions you do about where we are currently.

Why does time in a job have an impact?
Isn't it a coincidence that the three best teams in the league currently have three of the longest serving managers. Guardiola finished 4th in his first season, getting battered 4-0 at Everton. Klopp finished 8th? Arteta 8th too I think. We're 5th this season, where do you think we would finish at the start of the season?

The start of the season form was the worst thing that could have happened because it's messed up fans expectations.

I've actually enjoyed this season, I've enjoyed watching a much more likeable set of players, the football is much better even if parts of it can be worked on, the atmosphere around the club is much better and the manager we have isn't moaning about things and making excuses in every interview.

Indeed, fans are meant to be enjoying the football in every match and you're meant to see inconsistency, we are literally in rebuild season. You're right the first 10 matches of the season exceeded people's expectations, in reality we are averaging 1.9 PPG, for reference the league leaders are averaging 2.3 PPG.
 
I totally forgot we were playing tonight, I was watching snooker haha. It's a lot more relaxing just to see the result, no doubt I'd be fucked off now if I'd have watched it.

Are you gonna make me wade through the match thread or would someone give me a brief overview of the game ( preferably without calling me a cunt or telling me to fuck off, but it's understandable if that's not possible).

Wade through it mate!

We had to watch it


Work Pain GIF by Offline Granny!
 
IMO. we started well last night. 15-20 minutes we looked on top and direct.
After that though, same old boring shit.

I'm bored. We are boring. Having the ball a lot isn't "attacking" football. They had 32% possession, and had 2 less shots and the same on target. And arguably had better chances.
It is nowhere near as boring as it was most of the time under Jose and Conte though.

At least we tend to control the games now rather than hoping the opposition allow us some counter attacks.
 
It is nowhere near as boring as it was most of the time under Jose and Conte though.

At least we tend to control the games now rather than hoping the opposition allow us some counter attacks.
that was no less boring.
Maybe it's a little less uncomfortable not playing on the edge of our own area for 90 minutes. But I was out of my seat so much more often when we won the ball in that area and rapidly passed through teams and generally scored from it.

Now all we do is fuck around in midfield doing absolutely nothing of interest.
 
Why do we have this god defined right to expect to roll over every single team we play before we have even kicked off, it's something I've noticed with this fanbase that before games fans will predict 'we're gonna win 5-0', that doesn't happen then fans starting whinging and moaning. How many teams have actually battered Luton this season for example? So why do you think we 'laboured' to a result against them?

If Ange was having no impact on this side say next time this season I'd understand your concerns but I think it's absolutely ridiculous that you have the questions you do about where we are currently.

Why does time in a job have an impact?
Isn't it a coincidence that the three best teams in the league currently have three of the longest serving managers. Guardiola finished 4th in his first season, getting battered 4-0 at Everton. Klopp finished 8th? Arteta 8th too I think. We're 5th this season, where do you think we would finish at the start of the season?

The start of the season form was the worst thing that could have happened because it's messed up fans expectations.

I've actually enjoyed this season, I've enjoyed watching a much more likeable set of players, the football is much better even if parts of it can be worked on, the atmosphere around the club is much better and the manager we have isn't moaning about things and making excuses in every interview.
We don't, doesn't mean you still shouldn't be rolling over sides with vastly fewer resources and inferior players though...

The fact that we rarely do should be annoying to manager, players and fans, that's how you stay motivated to strive to improve.

It's nothing to do with god given rights, it's an absolute fact that we have better players, facilities etc than most clubs. Align that with the right attitude and you should be comfortably beating many of the sides in this league most of the time, particularly at home.

If you play the lower 14 sides at home in the league, any one of those sides can give you a tough game on any given day, maybe they get really fortunate and frustrate you enough to nick 3 points. That doesn't mean that every game should be a grind! People seem to cling to this notion that top sides get the 3 points without playing well... The top sides don't grind out a hard fought win in all of those games, they beat those teams comfortably most of the time, give out a hiding or two even, and then when they do have the occasional 1 in 10 off day, they grind out the win anyway.

That is not what we have done, we have been grinding without playing all that well for much of the season now.

Something seems off, if you'd have told me during the first 10 games of the season that this is what we'd be serving up 7 months later I'd be baffled.

I'm personally never one of those that claims a game will be easy and we'll smash the next opponent, there's certainly games where I think we should, but I know we won't, because of all of the actual evidence to suggest we won't.

Ultimately, I'm rambling on to say that in isolation, a laboured win against Luton is fine, when the majority of your games are going like that though, it's irritating.

You can enjoy the things you listed, they are enjoyable, Ange seems a good bloke, it's nice that the players are having a good time Monday to Friday at work, vibes are on point... but it's all pretty irrelevant compared to what happens on the pitch, and right now it's not enjoyable at all for the most part.

We've lost all the dynamism we seemed to have early on, incisive passing and constant movement into dangerous spaces has given way to constant recycling of the ball between our defenders and dm, often feeling the need to give Vicario a good amount of possession before bothering to mount a slow march upon the opposition defence. Pretty sure Zouma was having a fag break off camera at points last night whilst we faffed about with the ball at the other end of the pitch.

For the record, I'm not saying Ange out, I don't get this need to be so precious about that whenever a criticism of the side is made. I very much hope things improve under him, but I'm also not utterly convinced that time will change anything either, we seem to need a lot of external factors to come together for us to show our "best", we need to be taking charge and forcing the issue ourselves and I'm not seeing much sign of that.

Even the supposed aggressive winner types (ie Romero) just slowly and passively plod about whilst opponents are sitting deep, it's the likes of him that you'd hope would be providing the urgency and oomph to break down these sides.

I just can't marry up the squad we have on paper with what we're seeing on the pitch, like I said before, I have a bias towards our players but look at the following and tell me if you disagree:

- Our keeper is class
- Our two starting centre backs are class, and provide all the attributes you'd ask for in a top pairing
- Our two starting fullbacks are class, defensively competent enough and provide a real attacking threat for differing reasons
- Our pool of central midfielders is very strong, and pretty well rounded. In theory we can put out a range of combinations depending on the opposition and what we feel would be best suited to taking control of the game against 90% of the opposition we face in the PL.
- Our forwards are the main point most feel that could do with improvement, however, Richi and Son have both scored a respectable number so far this season, Johnson is putting up good numbers, they are a perfectly capable unit in this league, they just don't have that x factor that puts them in the top bracket.

Yet, we concede loads, we don't particularly control games, we score a lot but don't often win comfortably, we don't really create all that much...


I can't put my finger on what exactly is the problem, but I'd be inclined to feel that it's something to do with attitude if pressed, I don't know what needs to happen for it to be rectified...

But it's frustrating.
 
But I've no doubt, that NEXT season could see a seismic North London shift, which sees US and Woolwich going for to toe like Liverpool/Everton in the '80s or Man Utd/Man City a few years back..
I don't want to piss on your bonfire but other teams can improve too next season..
 
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