Questions for our fanbase

[jimmyriggle]

Was reading this the other day http://supportersnotcustomers.com/2013/02/21/the-day-the-bluebirds-died/
Not sure if it's been posted here before but it's a really good read. The author is a passionate Cardiff fan who describes the way in which the vast majority of Cardiff fans accepted the changes to their identity, and ultimately even embraced those changes. The minority of fans who wanted to protest was relatively small, so that any protest movement did not really make an impact.
I was thinking how glad I was that, despite the problems with our support (mostly our home support), we at least wouldn't let something like this happen.
Then I remembered this day
The protest against Stratford. Great protest, but there must have been maximum 200 of us there, out of a possible 33,000 or so who were attending the game. A shocking turnout. This gave me the terrifying thought- would we let a Cardiff situation happen to us too?

I know it may seem like ancient history now...but why do you think so few of us turned out for the Stratford protest? Is it that fans didn't know about it? Or they thought Levy was bluffing? Is it because We are N17 were unhelpful (though well meaning) being the self-appointed leaders of the resistance but then shunning actual protests? Or is it because on the whole, we- like Cardiff and other modern football clubs- basically lack bottle and, despite a large number of us feeling strongly against Stratford, were apathetic when it came to actually fighting it? What do you think?
This may seem unimportant now, but I would say it's more important than ever. The way in which football clubs are run is basically dreadful. As well as Cardiff, and Levy with Stratford, we have the Hull owner trying to change their name, and many clubs who are run by dodgy owners prepared to gamble with the very future of the club in the attempt to make a profit. I don't think it's time to protest against Levy/ENIC, not now, but I think more likely than not- with the way football is being run at the moment- the need will come for us to protest at some point in the next 20-30 years. It could be against ENIC, it could be (more likely) against someone else who is even worse. Are we going to let them walk all over us again? Or are we going to be organised this time?
As far as I recall 1882/TFC wasn't around back in the days of the Stratford protest. I would like to think that if the Stratford situation was happening now, 1882/TFC would be very much part of the protest movement, and the numbers would be accordingly much higher.

A red flair?! Really?!!!

 

[palmers_green_yid]

Levy out for who? The alternatives to the current regime are pretty terrifying.

Gillette & Hicks style "investors" loading us with debt? Developing world "businessmen" who'd remake the club in their image?

The fans aren't unified on anything, so crying "ENIC Out" just rakes from the pot to the fire.

If you have an institution you want to protect, you need control. That means ultimately fan ownership, of some ilk. But that also demands an end to the squabbling about the club. We'd have to decide who Spurs are, on and off the pitch, and what our goals are. That requires hard work and grown-up attitudes; things the fan base lacks.

Agree that there are many worse chairmen than Levy, as we discussed before.
Also agree about fan ownership. But if we can't organise a simple protest I don't think we'll be able to organise that. More chance of it coming about through legislation (which is pretty unlikely, I think Labour have 25% fan ownership in their manifesto but probably wouldn't follow through with it, even if they did win the election) than us lot all clubbing together £700m+ or whatever it would take.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

Mate of mine, its indefinite I believe.

Poor turn out that day, I wasn't really aware of it until I came along the high road but hung around when I saw what was going on.

Heard about his ban. That's the club trying to clamp down on any dissent, in the manner of any true dictator. No need to ban him for that, it wasn't even a criminal act as not in the stadium. An indefinite ban is well out of order. Makes me hate the current ownership even more.
Incidentally, I wonder how such a ban (not a police ban) works. Would every turnstile operator have a picture of his face? Obviously he can never have a membership in his name, but I hope he still manages to get in to watch us.

 

[Blanchflower]

Not my intention to go into the actual Stratford debate, but IMO anywhere in East London (even if only a few miles away etc) should never have been considered as an alternative...and IMO the fact that Levy was about to move us there, very much necessitated mass demonstrations. You can't measure our identity as a North London club in terms of money or on the pitch success- it is priceless.

I think ENIC want to sell which may be causing them to drag their feet over the new ground.

I agree moving to Stratford or anywhere outside of Tottenham would be shit, and at the time loads agreed.......nearly everyone seems to be upset that we aren't competing on the pitch now though - I wonder how many if given the ability to see the future as it is now versus a future at the Olympic stadium with Bale having stuck around at the prospect of playing there and an extra £400m in the club's bank account saved in costs would happily sacrifice the club's history/identity.

 

[Greaves357_bestever]

I thought that moving to Stratford was a good idea BUT of course not when it transpired we were being played for mugs by the OS committee. To me, IF we were going to move into a brand new football stadium next season at the Olympic site, it would be far preferable to the expensive fiasco we've been landed with instead.

IF the people of Totenham wanted us so badly to stay, where's the clamour against the hold ups and extra costs we've suffered. Most Spurs fans travel tens of miles to get to the Lane, for many Stratford with its excellent transport connections would be an easier journey, plus it would have stopped West Ham in their tracks. (kinda pun, kinda meant) Now instead West Ham have a realistic chance to overtake us in the next twenty years after over 100 years in our shadow, the thought of us becoming London's fourth club is horrendous to me.

 

[pleb]

One thing they cannot buy and take away from us is our tradition. That will always be there, rain hail or shine!

 

[palmers_green_yid]

The Cardiff situation is a good example of why I no longer love football. One thing is what Tan did to the club, another thing is that the majority of fans accept it as long as there is short-term success.

I still love football due to the fact there are still some fans left (at every/most clubs) who would be opposed to such a thing, even if it is a minority. But I agree fully with the rest of your post.
How many games do you come over for these days? Do you still have a season ticket?

 

[Pirate]

Was reading this the other day http://supportersnotcustomers.com/2013/02/21/the-day-the-bluebirds-died/
Not sure if it's been posted here before but it's a really good read. The author is a passionate Cardiff fan who describes the way in which the vast majority of Cardiff fans accepted the changes to their identity, and ultimately even embraced those changes. The minority of fans who wanted to protest was relatively small, so that any protest movement did not really make an impact.
I was thinking how glad I was that, despite the problems with our support (mostly our home support), we at least wouldn't let something like this happen.
Then I remembered this day
The protest against Stratford. Great protest, but there must have been maximum 200 of us there, out of a possible 33,000 or so who were attending the game. A shocking turnout. This gave me the terrifying thought- would we let a Cardiff situation happen to us too?

I know it may seem like ancient history now...but why do you think so few of us turned out for the Stratford protest? Is it that fans didn't know about it? Or they thought Levy was bluffing? Is it because We are N17 were unhelpful (though well meaning) being the self-appointed leaders of the resistance but then shunning actual protests? Or is it because on the whole, we- like Cardiff and other modern football clubs- basically lack bottle and, despite a large number of us feeling strongly against Stratford, were apathetic when it came to actually fighting it? What do you think?
This may seem unimportant now, but I would say it's more important than ever. The way in which football clubs are run is basically dreadful. As well as Cardiff, and Levy with Stratford, we have the Hull owner trying to change their name, and many clubs who are run by dodgy owners prepared to gamble with the very future of the club in the attempt to make a profit. I don't think it's time to protest against Levy/ENIC, not now, but I think more likely than not- with the way football is being run at the moment- the need will come for us to protest at some point in the next 20-30 years. It could be against ENIC, it could be (more likely) against someone else who is even worse. Are we going to let them walk all over us again? Or are we going to be organised this time?
As far as I recall 1882/TFC wasn't around back in the days of the Stratford protest. I would like to think that if the Stratford situation was happening now, 1882/TFC would be very much part of the protest movement, and the numbers would be accordingly much higher.

Was reading this the other day http://supportersnotcustomers.com/2013/02/21/the-day-the-bluebirds-died/
Not sure if it's been posted here before but it's a really good read. The author is a passionate Cardiff fan who describes the way in which the vast majority of Cardiff fans accepted the changes to their identity, and ultimately even embraced those changes. The minority of fans who wanted to protest was relatively small, so that any protest movement did not really make an impact.
I was thinking how glad I was that, despite the problems with our support (mostly our home support), we at least wouldn't let something like this happen.
Then I remembered this day
The protest against Stratford. Great protest, but there must have been maximum 200 of us there, out of a possible 33,000 or so who were attending the game. A shocking turnout. This gave me the terrifying thought- would we let a Cardiff situation happen to us too?

I know it may seem like ancient history now...but why do you think so few of us turned out for the Stratford protest? Is it that fans didn't know about it? Or they thought Levy was bluffing? Is it because We are N17 were unhelpful (though well meaning) being the self-appointed leaders of the resistance but then shunning actual protests? Or is it because on the whole, we- like Cardiff and other modern football clubs- basically lack bottle and, despite a large number of us feeling strongly against Stratford, were apathetic when it came to actually fighting it? What do you think?
This may seem unimportant now, but I would say it's more important than ever. The way in which football clubs are run is basically dreadful. As well as Cardiff, and Levy with Stratford, we have the Hull owner trying to change their name, and many clubs who are run by dodgy owners prepared to gamble with the very future of the club in the attempt to make a profit. I don't think it's time to protest against Levy/ENIC, not now, but I think more likely than not- with the way football is being run at the moment- the need will come for us to protest at some point in the next 20-30 years. It could be against ENIC, it could be (more likely) against someone else who is even worse. Are we going to let them walk all over us again? Or are we going to be organised this time?
As far as I recall 1882/TFC wasn't around back in the days of the Stratford protest. I would like to think that if the Stratford situation was happening now, 1882/TFC would be very much part of the protest movement, and the numbers would be accordingly much higher.

Brilliant read, thanks for posting

Such a shame to see it just accepted, but sadly it was always going to be

 

[palmers_green_yid]

I think the Stratford move was serious given the demands the local council was making on the club. They were essentially asking THFC to undertake all the development the urban government was supposed to do. At the costs the club was facing, it may have been a choice between staying in Tottenham and being financially crippled, or moving and being able to continue as a club. Not ideal, but we don't know the numbers ourselves.

Too convenient that NDP was viable, then suddenly not viable when Stratford came on the table, then viable again afterwards. It was never a question of Stratford or bust. Any money which we could have reasonably expected Haringay or London to give us would have been a very, very small percentage of the overall cost of NDP.
And even if it wasn't viable (which it was) we were and are perfectly stable with our finances in our current ground. The option to stay at WHL or to look for other North London alternatives was still there, without calling into doubt the future of our club.
It was a question, instead, of identity vs (possible) on the pitch success.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Too convenient that NDP was viable, then suddenly not viable when Stratford came on the table, then viable again afterwards. It was never a question of Stratford or bust. Any money which we could have reasonably expected Haringay or London to give us would have been a very, very small percentage of the overall cost of NDP.
And even if it wasn't viable (which it was) we were and are perfectly stable with our finances in our current ground. The option to stay at WHL or to look for other North London alternatives was still there, without calling into doubt the future of our club.
It was a question, instead, of identity vs (possible) on the pitch success.

NDP wasn't looking viable though. It wasn't about money from Haringey/London, it was how they wanted Spurs to build them a subway station and 20 years of road work they'd avoided doing. I think Stratford was a real choice until the city backed down on some pretty unreasonable demands. I also think things probably looked better in terms of fan access and commercial tie-ins for the club.

In the end the opposition of fans and other clubs did it in, but I think internally it was a very real choice, and probably the preferred choice until the city came to its senses after the riots.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

NDP wasn't looking viable though. It wasn't about money from Haringey/London, it was how they wanted Spurs to build them a subway station and 20 years of road work they'd avoided doing. I think Stratford was a real choice until the city backed down on some pretty unreasonable demands. I also think things probably looked better in terms of fan access and commercial tie-ins for the club.

In the end the opposition of fans and other clubs did it in, but I think internally it was a very real choice, and probably the preferred choice until the city came to its senses after the riots.

Were those conditions needed to get planning permission at the time? If so, I can't remember that part as I was focusing on the Say no to Stratford movement at the time. If that was the case though, how come NDP was our preferred option until the very moment Stratford appeared as an option? Levy must have known about those things at the time previous to Stratford being an option.

Also:
1. Haringey were clearing being very unreasonable and surely could have been talked out of this
2. We could have stayed at WHL or tried to find somewhere else in North London.

Of course Stratford was better for corporates etc, that's not what I'm arguing about. What I'm trying to say is that we did have a choice, it wasn't a case of "the club will cease to exist unless we move to East London".

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Were those conditions needed to get planning permission at the time? If so, I can't remember that part as I was focusing on the Say no to Stratford movement at the time. If that was the case though, how come NDP was our preferred option until the very moment Stratford appeared as an option? Levy must have known about those things at the time previous to Stratford being an option.

Also:
1. Haringey were clearing being very unreasonable and surely could have been talked out of this
2. We could have stayed at WHL or tried to find somewhere else in North London.

Of course Stratford was better for corporates etc, that's not what I'm arguing about. What I'm trying to say is that we did have a choice, it wasn't a case of "the club will cease to exist unless we move to East London".

NDP was the preferred option until an alternative appeared because it may have been the only option. I think the fans are very naieve about just how bloody difficult it is to build something like a stadium in modern day London. Chelsea have been trying as long as we have to do the same thing. And they've had even less success.

Given the council's demands, you don't think ENIC/the club didn't try to talk them out of it? And the failure to get anywhere with that was what led to the strong interest in Stratford? You don't undertake that kind of a move unless you really don't have a choice, especially after buying up all the surrounding property you can around WHL in anticipation of building there.

It's pretty clear the plan was initially to improve WHL, which was later abandoned. Perhaps because they felt that they needed something bigger than was physically possible in a rebuild of WHL itself. They then started acquiring property around the area in anticipation of building a new stadium, which was not a rapid process. They started getting the planning permissions and what not, and did run into large demands from the local council and city. Those pushed up the cost of the new stadium project by a very significant margin. The Stratford option appears. Spurs indicate interest, perhaps initially due to the intransigence of the council, perhaps just due to the economic advantages. Fans begin to indicate their opposition, but the club keeps looking, perhaps because nothing was changing in Haringey. Fans get serious about resisting the idea. The club digs in. Alarm bells perhaps start ringing for all parties. Then we get the riots, and a newfound community-mindedness on the part of local government. Suddenly, the NDP becomes a much more viable project. At the same time, the Stratford option goes against the club. Back to the NDP, but a few years stalled. It may be easier, but it's still bloody hard to do, especially when you don't have all the land. Ultimately, we may never get that land, which would be a problem. If that happened, I don't know how they could do anything without just demolishing WHL in situ, and rebuilding from scratch. Which likely would be a lot longer than a year away.

I don't really see how ENIC are villans in this case though. They want to build a new stadium, and have good reasons for doing that. It's bloody tough to do that, and I think anyone who thought it was easy really didn't have a clue. I think everyone at the club has been rather traumatized by how much effort this has taken, and it's going to be a lot more trauma yet. But I really don't see how the actions of the club can be considered as being so ridiculous. They are responsible for looking out for their own interests as an ongoing entity. Haringey and the wider city of London haven't shown any concern about that, or about anything other than how much they can squeeze from the club.

 

[Yorkshire_Spurs]

. Chelsea have been trying as long as we have to do the same thing. And they've had even less success.

Even Liverpool are struggling in the shit hole that is Liverpool

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Even Liverpool are struggling in the shit hole that is Liverpool

And blowing up large sections of Liverpool would definitely be considered as acting in the public interest.

 

[78Spur]

I am pretty sure there was a serious attempt by Spurs to get Stratford, there was a good business case to move there, all the infrastructure was in place and all the compulsory purchase and planning work was done & dusted, of course ENIC were attracted. They also knew enough fans would follow if the football was of a decent standard and that we were still looking there or thereabouts for Champions League. They also could say that the move that Woolwich made was not much different to the one they were proposing for us.

It doesn't really matter now, what matters is that someone has a vision for the club and it is not all about trying to squeeze money out of the fans, it's not all about profit but some kind of investment in our long term.

In assessment of ENIC, they paid for our new training facility, which is pretty highly rated, they have a plan to develop NDP. The real concern boils down to 2 key things.

1. The ticketing price is still way too high (match day and season ticket), Spurs have massive revenue from TV rights and Sponsorship and they don't need to charge so much to get in to a match, they need to either lose the Category match pricing completely or change the pricing structuree. THe club know full well that a lot of money is going to be diverted in to the new ground and the least they can do is give better value for money and retain goodwill while that's going on.

2. The overall strategy of hiring management is inconsistent, we have gone through too many '5 year plans', new football management structures and of course, David Pleat... We have been through a lot of managers, some perhaps deserving more time & patience.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

I am pretty sure there was a serious attempt by Spurs to get Stratford, there was a good business case to move there, all the infrastructure was in place and all the compulsory purchase and planning work was done & dusted, of course ENIC were attracted. They also knew enough fans would follow if the football was of a decent standard and that we were still looking there or thereabouts for Champions League. They also could say that the move that Woolwich made was not much different to the one they were proposing for us.

It doesn't really matter now, what matters is that someone has a vision for the club and it is not all about trying to squeeze money out of the fans, it's not all about profit but some kind of investment in our long term.

In assessment of ENIC, they paid for our new training facility, which is pretty highly rated, they have a plan to develop NDP. The real concern boils down to 2 key things.

1. The ticketing price is still way too high (match day and season ticket), Spurs have massive revenue from TV rights and Sponsorship and they don't need to charge so much to get in to a match, they need to either lose the Category match pricing completely or change the pricing structuree. THe club know full well that a lot of money is going to be diverted in to the new ground and the least they can do is give better value for money and retain goodwill while that's going on.

2. The overall strategy of hiring management is inconsistent, we have gone through too many '5 year plans', new football management structures and of course, David Pleat... We have been through a lot of managers, some perhaps deserving more time & patience.

On 1, I get that fans may want cheaper tickets, but we won't have a hope at being competitive with lower revenue. We don't get enough from TV rights and sponsorship to make up for the shortfall in matchday revenue vs. our competition. To pull level with Woolwich on revenue, we'd need to approximately double matchday and commercial revenue.

The prices may stink, but they're not being spent on gin by the owners. It really does cost that much to fund Spurs.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Said this on another thread, but the loyal fanbase is still about. It's just that football is far too overpriced and less accessible.
Ticket prices are far too high due to large player salaries coupled with most clubs reduced capacity/all seating.

I did some analysis and come up with the stat that only 0.79% of the average annual wage in 76 was needed to attend 19 home games, compared to almost 4% now.

Then I came across this article today and was quite shocked.http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...fore-the-rupert-murdoch-billions-9864052.html

The facilities cost more as well. If you look at some of the stadiums of that era, they quite literally were death traps waiting for misfortune to strike.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

To summarise.
Your position: Levy/ENIC are justified in doing whatever they want as long as it is their economic interest
My position: Levy/ENIC should put the identity of the club and the wishes of its die-hard fans over their economic interest.

Not really, but whatever. ENIC have the right to do what they want with the property they own. Customers have the right to not buy tickets or shirts if they think what ENIC does is rubbish.

ENIC have spent over a decade trying to build a new stadium. It's proven to be a very complicated process. Fan claims that all fault lies with the club and other involved groups (in particular, local government) are blameless are factually incorrect.

 

[Joe Clash]

Not really, but whatever. ENIC have the right to do what they want with the property they own. Customers have the right to not buy tickets or shirts if they think what ENIC does is rubbish.

ENIC have spent over a decade trying to build a new stadium. It's proven to be a very complicated process. Fan claims that all fault lies with the club and other involved groups (in particular, local government) are blameless are factually incorrect.

Do you think they have a right to disband the club and sell off WHL to the highest bidder?

 

[Juicy Sushi]

I just don't see it in that kind of capitalistic way. The club is more than a business which they owners can do what they like with. It's a community, a tribe, something we hold dear. It's not the same as Mac Donalds versus Burger King. If Woolwich's "product" is better than ours, then we're not going to go and watch them instead, are we? For me it's more like a love relationship. Spurs moving to Stratford is the equivalent of my girlfriend getting a sex change. Of course I'd still love her but it would be very difficult if not impossible to carry on with the relationship.

We choose to put that emotion into it. We can talk about it being involuntary all we like, but at the fundamental level, we are paying money to watch football matches for our entertainment.

Whoever is in charge of Spurs needs to know they can't fuck us over in that way. And if they try to, we need to be ready to protest, so that they think they will be hit where it hurts (financially).

Levy/ENIC need to treat the fans right because it is the right thing to do.

There is no evidence that they've actually "fucked" anyone over. And as far as treating the fans right, what exactly would that be? There's no consensus among us about what we want out of the club, so exactly who are they supposed to be listening to? You? Me? The Supporter's Trust? They want happy customers. The people within the club are generally fans of it as well, so want to emotionally do the right thing, but exactly what that is depends very much on your particular viewpoint.

To say they can do what they like is the same as saying "rich corporations shouldn't have to pay tax" or "society has no obligation to help people who are dying and who are too poor to afford treatment" or (to take an extreme example) "if I am stronger than you it is my right to overpower you and take your possessions".

No, it isn't. This is a sports team we happen to support. It's not a fundamental pillar of human civilization. If Spurs the club dies, there are plenty of other clubs around, and we're free to start our own new one any time we like. The shareholders who own the club and who are undertaking all the financial risks for the running of the club are the ones who get to make the choices because it's their livelihood on the line, not ours. And by that I don't just mean ENIC, I mean everyone from Levy to the lunch lady. They all have significantly more skin in this game than we do.

No. This may sound over the top but it's true: for many of us THFC is our passion and our lives will be massively affected by the decisions these people make.

Indeed we will. But so will they. Accusing them of having nothing but bad intentions, and foaming at the mouth with accusations based on fear with no basis in actual facts though isn't really going to accomplish very much.

The club aren't going to find it worth their while to dialogue with us when the most intelligent thing we have to say is: "SPENDMOREMONEYLEVYYOUCUNTHOWDAREYOUMOVEUSTOSTRATFORD#NOTOMKYOUHAVENORIGHTTOMAKEANYDECISIONSITSNOTYOURCLUB"

That is about the level of discourse the fans and THST are managing to provide at the moment. I feel the club could do a much better job of explaining the decisions they're making, and in particular the why of the matter, but at the same time I understand how complicated the real world and major business decisions are, and don't expect instant answers, or that the answer will always be yes.

Yes, getting a new stadium is a complicated process. Yes, Haringey were difficult. But that does not excuse a permanent move to Stratford. As long as White Hart Lane is standing or there are other options, there is simply no excuse- ever- for trying to do that.

Yes, there is. It's called the real world, and the dollars and cents of running a business. Because that is what Spurs are. We can surround that with as much rhetoric as we want, but for the last century Tottenham Hotspur have always been a business devoted to getting you to give them money in return for staging football matches for you to watch. That's it. The amounts of money involved have changed, but the crux of the matter has always been that exchange. And if Haringey put up restrictions which make it impossible for Spurs to actually do that, why should they not move elsewhere? In the end, they haven't. And Spurs aren't moving. But the scenario remains.