Questions for our fanbase

[Norwegian_Yid]

The Cardiff situation is a good example of why I no longer love football. One thing is what Tan did to the club, another thing is that the majority of fans accept it as long as there is short-term success.

 

[Benjoss]

Honestly I just don't think people thought the Stratford situation was real at the time. If it had genuinely gone ahead then you would have seen a bigger mobilisation of fans, which of course would probably have been too late.
These days I guess it has to be pretty significant and in your face to get you out of your armchair.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

Honestly I just don't think people thought the Stratford situation was real at the time. If it had genuinely gone ahead then you would have seen a bigger mobilisation of fans, which of course would probably have been too late.
These days I guess it has to be pretty significant and in your face to get you out of your armchair.

Thanks for the reply. I agree, the numbers would have probably been x10 if it was going ahead. But like you say then it would have been too late.
I guess people just like to pretend everything's okay so they can be lazy, until it's 100% not okay and then it's too late. If we were a similarly sized team in Italy, Greece, Serbia, etc though, I'm sure the original protest would have been 2,000+ people, rather than 200.
Whatever you think of HF at Palace, I think they would be able to mobilise big support against this sort of thing. At Spurs we have the old school who organised this protest. But we also need 1882 to keep growing so they can mobilise younger fans when the time is needed.

 

[Mrs Perryman]

I still think that the Stratford bid was a red herring, to give certain parties a kick up the kyber, as us moving out of the area would be a total disaster for the locals. I'd like to think that if there was a serious threat to our identity then we would organise ourselves properly.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

NDP was the preferred option until an alternative appeared because it may have been the only option. I think the fans are very naieve about just how bloody difficult it is to build something like a stadium in modern day London. Chelsea have been trying as long as we have to do the same thing. And they've had even less success.

Given the council's demands, you don't think ENIC/the club didn't try to talk them out of it? And the failure to get anywhere with that was what led to the strong interest in Stratford? You don't undertake that kind of a move unless you really don't have a choice, especially after buying up all the surrounding property you can around WHL in anticipation of building there.

It's pretty clear the plan was initially to improve WHL, which was later abandoned. Perhaps because they felt that they needed something bigger than was physically possible in a rebuild of WHL itself. They then started acquiring property around the area in anticipation of building a new stadium, which was not a rapid process. They started getting the planning permissions and what not, and did run into large demands from the local council and city. Those pushed up the cost of the new stadium project by a very significant margin. The Stratford option appears. Spurs indicate interest, perhaps initially due to the intransigence of the council, perhaps just due to the economic advantages. Fans begin to indicate their opposition, but the club keeps looking, perhaps because nothing was changing in Haringey. Fans get serious about resisting the idea. The club digs in. Alarm bells perhaps start ringing for all parties. Then we get the riots, and a newfound community-mindedness on the part of local government. Suddenly, the NDP becomes a much more viable project. At the same time, the Stratford option goes against the club. Back to the NDP, but a few years stalled. It may be easier, but it's still bloody hard to do, especially when you don't have all the land. Ultimately, we may never get that land, which would be a problem. If that happened, I don't know how they could do anything without just demolishing WHL in situ, and rebuilding from scratch. Which likely would be a lot longer than a year away.

I don't really see how ENIC are villans in this case though. They want to build a new stadium, and have good reasons for doing that. It's bloody tough to do that, and I think anyone who thought it was easy really didn't have a clue. I think everyone at the club has been rather traumatized by how much effort this has taken, and it's going to be a lot more trauma yet. But I really don't see how the actions of the club can be considered as being so ridiculous. They are responsible for looking out for their own interests as an ongoing entity. Haringey and the wider city of London haven't shown any concern about that, or about anything other than how much they can squeeze from the club.

To summarise.
Your position: Levy/ENIC are justified in doing whatever they want as long as it is their economic interest
My position: Levy/ENIC should put the identity of the club and the wishes of its die-hard fans over their economic interest.

 

[Nutter-Naylor]

I was there that day. A small turnout but pretty effective nontheless. However, i agree, if our fans thought something/anything would give us CL football, the majority of them would roll over & have their tummy tickled.

The fella with the flare got a hefty ban.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

Levy out for who? The alternatives to the current regime are pretty terrifying.

Gillette & Hicks style "investors" loading us with debt? Developing world "businessmen" who'd remake the club in their image?

The fans aren't unified on anything, so crying "ENIC Out" just rakes from the pot to the fire.

If you have an institution you want to protect, you need control. That means ultimately fan ownership, of some ilk. But that also demands an end to the squabbling about the club. We'd have to decide who Spurs are, on and off the pitch, and what our goals are. That requires hard work and grown-up attitudes; things the fan base lacks.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

I agree moving to Stratford or anywhere outside of Tottenham would be shit, and at the time loads agreed.......nearly everyone seems to be upset that we aren't competing on the pitch now though - I wonder how many if given the ability to see the future as it is now versus a future at the Olympic stadium with Bale having stuck around at the prospect of playing there and an extra £400m in the club's bank account saved in costs would happily sacrifice the club's history/identity.

I think probably 60% of the fanbase back then would have accepted Stratford. Of those who were against, I'd like to think many would still be against given your hypothetical choice. I'd rather us be playing in the Conference than see us at Stratford and in the CL.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

I still think that the Stratford bid was a red herring, to give certain parties a kick up the kyber, as us moving out of the area would be a total disaster for the locals. I'd like to think that if there was a serious threat to our identity then we would organise ourselves properly.

I think you are too trusting of Levy. I think he cares far more about making a profit for ENIC than he does about the local area. If he wasn't serious, why would he break the law in hiring someone to spy on West Ham's bid?
I like your last sentence. I think there was a serious threat, but a lot of people didn't perceive it as such, which is understandable but misguided (IMO of course).

 

[Fidel Castro]

ENIC/Levy will sell its soul if it, makes profit.
The Stafford bid was always going to fail , as our arrogant , pompous and
immoral move was covered in controversy, dirt and destined to collapse .
Bit like the team.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

The Stratford thing was very much in the plauseability stage for us, at least I'm sure most saw it that way as is was a long way from being confirmed, but it's a fair point to suggest our next owners could quite conceivably be from Asia and decide that Red being a lucky colour, is what our shirts should be, and we would have our very own Cardiff style crisis of identity.

Would we actually have enough in our number to effectively protest, or would the new chairman stick to his guns and be proved right by watching Spurs fans part with their hard earned to buy the new Red and Blue kit?

I think a majority of modern football fans are prepared to sacrifice identity if they think that it may give them a chance of success. Success is their equivalent of the money the businessmen are after; it makes them do desperate things. (I'm not even saying they're all 'bad' fans, some pro-Stratford fans genuinely loved the club...their vision of what it means was different from mine though).
However, there is a large minority who feel differently. I think at Spurs this group of people is large enough to have influence; the question is being able to be organised. We need to learn the lesson of complacency from Stratford. Because if we had been chosen as preferred bidder, I think it would have been too late to do anything about it.

 

[Blanchflower]

I never really saw Stratford as that bigger deal - we needed and still clearly need alternatives to redeveloping WHL as even 4 years down the line the Council / Government still haven't helped us reach a point where we can definitively say the NLDP is going ahead.

100% my preference would be to stay in Tottenham and on the same site, but protesting about the owners looking at alternatives when we now know the time and money its taken to even get to the point where an appeal by Archway could scupper the whole thing seems slightly counter-productive.

We should have been protesting against Haringey and the Government to fast track our planning, extend the Victoria Line and drop their s.106 demands.

 

[Ady]

SKY sports have totally raped the game and this in turn has contributed to our downfall and identity.
It's such a change from the days of hopping on the train with my paper round money and going to see spurs play and we are only going back 20 odd years ago and spent all my money watching spurs when I was a kid.
I had a gap of a few years going and am quite horrified with what is going on at spurs but we are not the only team as mentioned Cardiff and Hull have issues as well.
Where do I stand on Enic and levy well as has been said be careful what you wish for but my grandad who was a regular at the lane in the 50s and 60s would turn in his grave.
Some sort of constructive demonstration is needed to regain our identity and stop the rot.
Not sure what maybe everyone in the ground turn our backs or the whole ground make a humming noise.
Maybe just sit in our seats and play a game like pass the parcel.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

I never really saw Stratford as that bigger deal - we needed and still clearly need alternatives to redeveloping WHL as even 4 years down the line the Council / Government still haven't helped us reach a point where we can definitively say the NLDP is going ahead.

100% my preference would be to stay in Tottenham and on the same site, but protesting about the owners looking at alternatives when we now know the time and money its taken to even get to the point where an appeal by Archway could scupper the whole thing seems slightly counter-productive.

We should have been protesting against Haringey and the Government to fast track our planning, extend the Victoria Line and drop their s.106 demands.

Not my intention to go into the actual Stratford debate, but IMO anywhere in East London (even if only a few miles away etc) should never have been considered as an alternative...and IMO the fact that Levy was about to move us there, very much necessitated mass demonstrations. You can't measure our identity as a North London club in terms of money or on the pitch success- it is priceless.

I think ENIC want to sell which may be causing them to drag their feet over the new ground.

 

[DanishPastry]

What Tan did to Cardiff was a fucking disgrace and I feel for them.

Alright he pumped money in to help win them promotion, but to change their identity? Im all for moving forward and expanding your audience, but you do that by playing good football that will help get you to the top.

 

[YidoBuckler]

I think probably 60% of the fanbase back then would have accepted Stratford. Of those who were against, I'd like to think many would still be against given your hypothetical choice. I'd rather us be playing in the Conference than see us at Stratford and in the CL.

Only way I would even consider accepting Stratford now (dead against it permanently) would be for one season and if it a straight toss up between there or MK while the imaginary new WHL is finished.. And if West Ham wouldn't get a penny out of us for the privilege either.

 

[palmers_green_yid]

Only way I would even consider accepting Stratford now (dead against it permanently) would be for one season and if it a straight toss up between there or MK while the imaginary new WHL is finished.. And if West Ham wouldn't get a penny out of us for the privilege either.

I agree. One season means very little and would be a totally different matter. If we had to move anywhere for a year Stratford would get my vote.

 

[TommyD123]

I still think that the Stratford bid was a red herring, to give certain parties a kick up the kyber, as us moving out of the area would be a total disaster for the locals. I'd like to think that if there was a serious threat to our identity then we would organise ourselves properly.

This was always my interpretation - everyone seems to forget the pledges Boris et al made to post the decision to pacify us.

I am delighted we didn't get Stratford and would've been sick to move from WHL....BUT as a taxpayer I was genuinely angered it was awarded to West Ham. £80m of public money to, as Greaves357_bestever points out, give them an opportunity to overtake us. Sickening!

Frankly that Chelsea scumbag Seb Coe should have his knighthood removed for the whole farce.

 

[Tottenham Sean]

I am pretty sure there was a serious attempt by Spurs to get Stratford, there was a good business case to move there, all the infrastructure was in place and all the compulsory purchase and planning work was done & dusted, of course ENIC were attracted. They also knew enough fans would follow if the football was of a decent standard and that we were still looking there or thereabouts for Champions League. They also could say that the move that Woolwich made was not much different to the one they were proposing for us.

It doesn't really matter now, what matters is that someone has a vision for the club and it is not all about trying to squeeze money out of the fans, it's not all about profit but some kind of investment in our long term.

In assessment of ENIC, they paid for our new training facility, which is pretty highly rated, they have a plan to develop NDP. The real concern boils down to 2 key things.

1. The ticketing price is still way too high (match day and season ticket), Spurs have massive revenue from TV rights and Sponsorship and they don't need to charge so much to get in to a match, they need to either lose the Category match pricing completely or change the pricing structuree. THe club know full well that a lot of money is going to be diverted in to the new ground and the least they can do is give better value for money and retain goodwill while that's going on.

2. The overall strategy of hiring management is inconsistent, we have gone through too many '5 year plans', new football management structures and of course, David Pleat... We have been through a lot of managers, some perhaps deserving more time & patience.

Take away the emotional and historic ties you have with a football club and moving to Stratford made perfect business sense.Thats why a football club can't be compared to other businesses

 

[DeeGee]

Said this on another thread, but the loyal fanbase is still about. It's just that football is far too overpriced and less accessible.
Ticket prices are far too high due to large player salaries coupled with most clubs reduced capacity/all seating.

I did some analysis and come up with the stat that only 0.79% of the average annual wage in 1976 was needed to attend 19 home games, compared to almost 4% now.
In reality ticket prices should be about £10.

Then I came across this article today and was quite shocked.http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...fore-the-rupert-murdoch-billions-9864052.html

We need to get a grip. We also do not need to be held to ransom by the Liverpool fans who lost relatives. Hillsborough was a disaster but it could not be repeated with todays technology. You cannot get access to a ground without a valid card.
I also didn't see those same people now opposed to cheap standing calling for a ban on smoking in grounds after 56 deaths and 256 injuries in the Bradford tragedy.