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I don't trust Levy after the Stratford debacle. For me this matters more than what we have done on the pitch. I can't see that he was bluffing with it, when he was hiring people to spy on West Ham's bid. Even if he was bluffing, no true Spurs fan would allow us to think for one minute that we might move out of North London.

Even I must admit we have done well on the pitch under ENIC. Still, there's a lot they have done wrong. If there was literally no money to spend on transfers in those successive January windows then I suggest Joe Lewis should have put some cash in...and I hope Levy was begging him for it, telling him it would be an investment, but I can't see it. The man comes across as stubbornly obsessed with getting value for money players above all else.

I can't understand Levy's obsession with a director of football system either. I suppose you could say it has had mixed results, with Arnesen doing well in the post, Commoli a mixed bag (v. poor at first but then some signings who came good after he had gone), and Baldini starting very poorly. But surely the best managers will want to have control over who they buy, which means we won't attract them, particularly considering Levy's record of sacking managers. My suspicion is that Levy doesn't have a good understanding of football and yet wants a lot of control over who we sign- not a good combination.

In a way it's hard to judge Levy as we don't know to what extent his hands are tied in regards to him being effectively an employee of Joe Lewis, but after Stratford I would classify him as a money man not a Spurs fan in any true sense.
Yes he's a lot better than Tan and the like but then again Cameron's a better head of state than Hitler, Stalin and Kim-Jung-Il but I still think he's a cunt.
I don't think Levy cares if you trust him. He runs the club you support - and he will do as he sees fit, whether that be best for the club, for him, or for ENIC. We have no say. If Stratford would have led to increased revenue, better players and regular Champions League football, I suspect we may have had some selective memory loss. I'd like to think not, but success and results tend to shut most people up. City are cunts, run by cunts, pumping excessive amounts of money into the game and their club, and they are one bloke walking away from being insolvent - yet their 'fans' are delirious.

Re DoF - Bayern Munich have always had a structure in place of a similar ilk. Any players the manager wants have to be agreed by the club. Does 'the club' want/need that player? They wouldn't sign 6 attacking midfielders just because Pep wanted them.

To digress slightly, Pep (and nor Jupp before him) wasn't allowed to bring in his own youth team coaches. They work with the ones in place or don't take the job. The kids, throughout all age groups, have a structure and consistency. This model should be repeated throughout Europe, yet we are endlessly leaving our kids with a new man in charge every time the first team coach is sacked. I personally feel that is madness.
 
Fair enough, but other clubs have expanded their stadiums or built new ones during the past 13/14 years. We haven't, so to say we're punching above our weight because of our small stadium, hmmmmm.

Also, it's not just about money (I know I know, don't tell that to ENIC and Sir Alan :).

A bigger stadium might have a better atmosphere, IF handled correctly.
Woolwich built a new stadium, their old one only held 4,000 more than our present.
Sunderland, Newcastle, Middlesbrough etc some with less revenue than us.
Enic on all fronts are rigid, frugal, not ambitious look at the clubs they have ran
and bullsed up , It would be foolish to think we are any different to their
financial masterplan. Also arguably the least attractive duo in football .

None of those had to deal with Haringey Council for the last 15 years
 
They didn't expand. They built a new ground - essentially they did what we are doing now. At the time, they were winning trophies and had huge demand. Under Sugar, we didn't. They had a helpful council and helpful GLA. We have a local council near enough holding us to ransom over Section 106 commitments and a GLA making sure we right all the social ills that have decimated Tottenham and Edmonton since the late 70's.

Sugar has lone gone , we can not move the blame game constantly . Levy/Lewis have had
over a decade to address these issues .
Clubs all round the country have built new stadiums , ENICS prudence is
suffocating on all levels.
 
Sugar has lone gone , we can not move the blame game constantly . Levy/Lewis have had
over a decade to address these issues .
Clubs all round the country have built new stadiums , ENICS prudence is
suffocating on all levels.
Woolwich's plan and build took 12 years from start to finish. Building in inner London is so different from building on brownfield site in Middlesbrough or a field just off the M4 that they may as well be in different countries.
 
Sugar has lone gone , we can not move the blame game constantly . Levy/Lewis have had
over a decade to address these issues .
Clubs all round the country have built new stadiums , ENICS prudence is
suffocating on all levels.

Again, how many of those clubs were prevented by governments trying to make them pay for a new tube system....we couldnt just build a new a stadium that no one could get to. We were fighting The Govenrnment.....as opposed to being given a stadium, or relocating into the middle of an industrial wilderness like most of those clubs up north do.
 
The only real criticism i have of levy/enic, apart from the olympic stadium, is that Im not 100% sure that Picketts lock was ever really considered as a site.
If the previous government hadnt fucked up the bid for the 2005 world athletics, I suspect we would have been in Pickets lock five years ago.

Greaves357_bestever Greaves357_bestever ..I cant believe you are being critical that they didnt sell up to russian. at least that way we still have some of our soul left. (and we are not several hundred million in debt to a cunt)
 
There are many options , one such as relocating if the barriers are impossible .
Our move to the Olympic Park was full of pomposity , destroying a show piece stadium
for just our vanity was always going to fail , morally it was always for WHU.
Brighton built a state of art stadium on the edge of the City (Falmer)
Endless excuses on all fronts don't wash any more .
 
Brighton had to move mountains . They nearly folded, had nothing . There fans were a beacon and
put ours to shame with their determination and resolve through there dark days.
There battle overall was far greater than ours.
The difference was the owners/fans wanted it .
 
Brighton had to move mountains . They nearly folded, had nothing . There fans were a beacon and
put ours to shame with their determination and resolve through there dark days.
There battle overall was far greater than ours.
The difference was the owners/fans wanted it .

Our owners and fans wanted it, but had to abide by the countries laws
 
I don't think Levy cares if you trust him. He runs the club you support - and he will do as he sees fit, whether that be best for the club, for him, or for ENIC. We have no say. If Stratford would have led to increased revenue, better players and regular Champions League football, I suspect we may have had some selective memory loss. I'd like to think not, but success and results tend to shut most people up.

Don't think there's too many Wimbledon left at MK Dons.
 
ENIC have had 13 and a half years in June. We are not vastly better off than we were in the previous 13 and a half years.
That simply isn't true. The players, the squad, the training facilities, the results, the league positions have all VASTLY improved since ENIC took over. That is fact, not open for debate. Whether you like ENIC or not, it is simply not possible to deny we are a far better and more attractive club than we were 14 years ago.

In terms of trophies we are worse off. One League Cup under ENIC, one FA Cup and a League Cup under Sugar&Scholar. That's significantly worse. In terms of league positions we've done better, but our highest lge position in the last 27 years, 3rd, came under Scholar, not ENIC. Furthermore the comparisons are likely to worsen for ENIC, because in December 2014, ENIC will have been in charge for 14 years, and in the previous 14 years there were two 3rd place finishes, 87 and 90, both under Scholar.
One trophy is not significantly worse. It's one trophy worse. The English leagues are infinitely more competitive now than they were in the 90's, they are not even comparable. Plus, you've compared 2 owners against ENIC in order to prove your point. How does that work?
We finished 3rd in '87 and '90 - then slowly slipped into lower mid table obscurity, which ENIC have pulled us out of, despite 2 top teams now being owned by billionaires that are willing to spend at will in order to achieve success amongst Man Utd's and Woolwhich's sustained success.

Re the stadium size, that's one of ENIC's biggest failings, it's precisely their fault that some 'smaller' clubs now have bigger capacities than ours. They've messed up on the stadium issue big-time. They could expanded the current stadium a long time ago, but chose not to.
We're in the middle of North London, surrounded by properties. It's hardly a simple task to expand your stadium. You act like we could've just whacked an extra tier on The Lane at will.

Since ENIC took over, only one stadium has increased capacity - The Stadium of Light (which was already bigger than WHL and they are not our competition regardless).
The Emirates and Etihad have been built. Oil billions paying for one - lack of funds and success for almost a decade paying for the other.
No "smaller clubs" have surpassed our capacity under ENIC's reign, so far as I can see. Complete fabrication on your part.

Incidentally I don't think for one moment ENIC were bluffing over Stratford, indeed I agree with them and Sugar, that going to the OS site and building a stadium there was a 'no-brainer' and how I wish we would have won the tender to do so. But of course our plan to demolish the stadium turned out to be a 'non-runner', so effectively we wasted a lot of time and some money backing the wrong option. So again ENIC got it wrong, though I think it was worth a try, initially at least. But maybe we should have got more feedback from the authorities, because to a certain extent we were played for mugs, it seems. Though you could argue the concessions we got from the NPD were a quid (and a half :) pro quo, for the OS fiasco.
So you agree with their decision to pursue that avenue, but attack them for it being wrong? You can't have it both ways. Any club in our position would look for and pursue the easiest option - demolish and rebuild. There isn't much land going in London these days, particularly enough to build a modern football stadia on. Common sense tells you we would try to push this through., as you agree. But still hate them for it.

I've not failed to factor in any of that. They are completely comparable because they all play in the same league as us. The Prem don't place us above City and Chelsea because we're not lottery winners. In fact the Prem love them, because they stopped Utd, Woolwich and Pool dominating proceedings.
Bollocks. Valenciennes aren't comparable to PSG just because they are in the same league. Nor are Elche and Real Madrid. Being in the same league does mean you judge them equally. Every team has different ambitions, targets and aspirations. If you want to have unrealistic ones and then blame ENIC for us not competing with Mansour and Abramovich, so be it - but we are so far apart financially, we're not comparable from a business sense.
It's like running a water company from your local spring and wondering why your sales are worse than Coca Cola's.

Similarly UEFA didn't give us Chelsea's place in the CL when we finished 4t, by declaring their CL triumph invalid.
Not sure what this point is? The rules are clearly stated, we were unlucky, but not cheated out of a place.

Our rivals are our rivals, we've got ahead of some of them like Leeds and Toon, we've fallen disastrously behind Chelsea, and City weren't even a rival but are now way in front of us.
As is the nature of football. We have got ahead of Leeds and Toon despite them throwing money at it, and fallen behind the others due to their owners.

ENIC/Levy , financial stability , Great. FFP now makes that more important than ever.
ENIC /Levy , self implosion . That'd be the managers and the players. Levy isn't our striker.
ENIC/Levy , fan divide I'm sure every club could claim this.
ENIC/Levy, No success Open to interpretation, but most clubs are worse off than us.
ENIC/Levy buy to sell, Levy didn't buy Modric and Bale with their future transfer fees in mind. No one could have forseen their impact for us. We are Spurs - Real Madrid can buy any player of us they want.
ENIC/Levy - Sainsbury,s Ridiculous point.

Not really the dream of the young poets.
The revolution will not be televised.
 
That simply isn't true. The players, the squad, the training facilities, the results, the league positions have all VASTLY improved since ENIC took over. That is fact, not open for debate. Whether you like ENIC or not, it is simply not possible to deny we are a far better and more attractive club than we were 14 years ago.

Exactly. How anyone can suggest we are no better off, when 2wks ago we genuinely believed LvG was going to be our manager.

If Man U hadnt shit their pants and sacked Moyes, he would have been.
 
There are many options , one such as relocating if the barriers are impossible .
Our move to the Olympic Park was full of pomposity , destroying a show piece stadium
for just our vanity was always going to fail , morally it was always for WHU.
Brighton built a state of art stadium on the edge of the City (Falmer)
Endless excuses on all fronts don't wash any more .
Pomposity? Vanity? WTF??? Ha!!

So being actively encouraged to bid by Boris is all about our vanity? Being lead up the garden path to ensure Golden Boy Seb's athletic legacy remained intact. Jesus. It wasn't vanity. It was a practical solution. A golden commercial opportunity. Not one that I agreed with btw. West Ham are now finding that the whole thing remains a complete dog's dinner of a stadium and a massive costly problem they have to solve with an athletics track. All it cost us was a little bit of time but would have been monumentally stupid not to explore given the conditions.

Brighton? Another greenfield site. How long between leaving the Goldstone and getting Falmer? How many public enquiries? How many times Prescott had to personally intervene?
 
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They didn't expand. They built a new ground - essentially they did what we are doing now. At the time, they were winning trophies and had huge demand. Under Sugar, we didn't. They had a helpful council and helpful GLA. We have a local council near enough holding us to ransom over Section 106 commitments and a GLA making sure we right all the social ills that have decimated Tottenham and Edmonton since the late 70's.
Fair comment, I should have been more careful and not used 'expand'. But the simple fact is they are now in a much bigger stadium, we're not. We have the same capacity we had when ENIC took over. You can give various reasons why, so can I, but the lack of extra capacity has hurt us. We now have a small ground by some of our rivals' standards. Furthermore, it looks like West Ham will overtake us in a few years time, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Liverpool go further ahead of us in the capacity stakes.

Re Johnboy and us having a 'soul' left. Seems to me under ENIC we have become a club with one of the most posionous atmospheres in the country. A club where our manager and captain suffer repeated attacks, where player after player, has been hounded mercilessly by large sections of our support. I can almost guarantee Stamford Bridge has been a happier place than the Lane over ENIC's tenure.
Of course I'd far rather have the trophies they've collected, maybe the atmosphere would be a bit better too. Alternatively, get in another billionaire benefactor, or if we stick with ENIC, how about our fans support the club.

Strange how so many think we have progressed so mightily under ENIC yet the club is rife with hate and vitriol from the fans.
 
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As far as I'm concerned we were a club between average and sometimes above average in the league, like Newcastle for example are now, having a massive financial problem and no perspective at all.
After ENIC took over, our financial situation bettered significantly and our sportive situation aswell. Now we're considered as one of Englands top teams, being disappointet when we're not finishing within the top four, getting some players that never signed at spurs ten years ago.

So I don't know what you're moaning about. Do you really want to go the fast way like ManCity or Chelsea, spending billions that you don't have just do have more success?
I personally love the club especially for going the longer, much mroe sustainable way of financial stability while still improving the sportive situation slightly and not spending money the club doesn't have.
 
As far as I'm concerned we were a club between average and sometimes above average in the league, like Newcastle for example are now, having a massive financial problem and no perspective at all.
After ENIC took over, our financial situation bettered significantly and our sportive situation aswey ell. Now we're considered as one of Englands top teams, being disappointet when we're not finishing within the top four, getting some players that never signed at spurs ten years ago.

So I don't know what you're moaning about. Do you really want to go the fast way like ManCity or Chelsea, spending billions that you don't have just do have more success?
I personally love the club especially for going the longer, much mroe sustainable way of financial stability while still improving the sportive situation slightly and not spending money the club doesn't have.
I think you'll find the moaning comes from others at the Lane and in cyberspace. If ENIC have done so well, which they haven't IMO, why is the Lane and Spursdom in general such a toxic bearpit?
 
We have unquestionably improved under ENIC. That's just a fact. As we have improved the standard of the league had improved, well the top 10. I think the brief success we had with a brilliantly talented and fairly cheap squad has just made the fans demand more. The rift between enic and the fans is because we have failed to continuously get champions league and build from there. Not being as good as we where last year is enough to rile fans. The fact our rise coincided with Citeh being bought by billioniares is a bit of a kick in the teeth, so is Chelsea ruining our second fourth place finish which again could of helped us attract those more lucrative names and keep the ones we already had.
 
I think you'll find the moaning comes from others at the Lane and in cyberspace. If ENIC have done so well, which they haven't IMO, why is the Lane and Spursdom in general such a toxic bearpit?

It really isn't. Managers like LvG, de Boer, Pochettino, Benitez wouldn't be hitching their skirts for us if that was remotely true.

There's a massive, huge, yawning chasm of difference between the self flagellation that creates self fulfilling hate circles in the virtual world and actual reality.
 
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