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Right. I think the suggestion on the pod of the manager's choosing the DoF was bizarre in the extreme. It would be like the Prime Minister (in France) choosing the President. It's just backward on the face of it.WindyCOYS said:
The manager is necessarily "below" the DoF simply because is brief is smaller and more tightly defined. It's the most important brief in the system, to be sure, and more important perhaps than all the others put together. But the DoF has concerns that are simply not the concerns of the manager, and it's not the manager that delegates the responsibility--it's the chairman.
For example, do we believe that Harry could've gotten Sherwood fired if he wanted to? I honestly don't know, but I doubt it, unless it came to a "Sherwood or me, Levy. Pick!" situation.
As I've noted elsewhere where the DoF discussion has come up, when the Qataris bought PSG, they brought in Leonardo as DoF, who immediately started buying, etc. But they kept Kombouaré along as manager, to provide some kind of continuity or something. Similarly, it's not as though Kombouaré was a bad manager. But he was a dead man walking from the moment Leonardo came in, simply because he wasn't Leonardo's choice. And he did as best a job as he could, considering PSG were in first when he was sacked (though they had been knocked out of the EL and had suffered humiliating defeats away to Marseille and at home to promoted Nancy).
Ancelotti may not have been the best choice, but at least all the responsibility falls on Leonardo, since it's his team throughout.
The problem with DoFs (and DC in particular) in England seems to have been this kind of stubborn idea of maintaining a tandem, precisely because, historically, the manager has been the ne plus ultra of the club. The problem, though, with a two-headed monster is deciding which head to cut off when a head needs to roll. Whose fault is Downing? DC's or Dalglish's? Maybe FSG know in the boardroom, but the basic fan doesn't, since Kenny is King, not a part of Comolli's footballing empire.
And I think that, as long as English managers feel entitled (and supporters deem it "natural" or the "only" way) to be capo di tutti capi at their clubs, they will resent having their responsibilities formally trimmed by the presence of a DoF. But I think it's inevitable that the game is moving in this direction of greater specialisation. It won't be the first time England out of stubbornness lets the world pass it by.
spooky
The Fighting Cock
So basically the DoF signs the players for the coach to manage?
Sorry, you're asking for something that's only possible if the DoF knows who to appoint as coach and that it's certain for them to get on. How many times did it fail at Spurs and Levy admitted as much. Most of the managers we've been linked with would not accept such a position. And if it falls back to the DoF presenting possible targets for the manager to select then what exactly is that system called? Is it a DoF or a chief scout or a go-between?
For the record (can't remember whether I said it on the pod) but I don't believe the DoF Sherwood rumours are true. Just people assuming because Sherwood was not part of the cull. No reason for Levy to go back to something that has failed him before.
Sorry, you're asking for something that's only possible if the DoF knows who to appoint as coach and that it's certain for them to get on. How many times did it fail at Spurs and Levy admitted as much. Most of the managers we've been linked with would not accept such a position. And if it falls back to the DoF presenting possible targets for the manager to select then what exactly is that system called? Is it a DoF or a chief scout or a go-between?
For the record (can't remember whether I said it on the pod) but I don't believe the DoF Sherwood rumours are true. Just people assuming because Sherwood was not part of the cull. No reason for Levy to go back to something that has failed him before.
The suggestion of the manager picking the DoF was a throwaway comment tbh, I don't think the DoF situation is one is an absolute necessity to keep up with the rest of Europe. The fact that it's being suggested that England is somehow backwards in this is laughable.
If implemented correctly it could work, as I said on the podcast, this is a very important appointment (our next boss), so if they fuck it up then it could set us back years. Levy was the same bloke who implemented it before, and he'll be implementing it this time, so I think that's more than enough reason for us to have our reservations.
What spooky said in his last paragraph is the more likely scenario and renders this moot in any case.
If implemented correctly it could work, as I said on the podcast, this is a very important appointment (our next boss), so if they fuck it up then it could set us back years. Levy was the same bloke who implemented it before, and he'll be implementing it this time, so I think that's more than enough reason for us to have our reservations.
What spooky said in his last paragraph is the more likely scenario and renders this moot in any case.
Exactly. This is precisely the system in place in Major League Baseball. It's not perfect, and it has been the case that managers bristle at being told that they have to play player x more and player y less, but that's the idea. The GM/DoF tries to fill in gaps in the system as a whole, from the academy (single-A) to the starting XI (MLB).spooky said:
Right. I don't think it's an easy system, but, to me, it makes more sense than the current system, where the manager not only has quotidian concerns (picking the starting XI) but also larger, long-term concerns (making sure the academy is well-stocked). And if the latter concerns are outside of Harry's concern (that is, they're Levy's), then we're already, again, and we're in agreement on this, working with a DoF system, where Levy's the DoF.spooky said:
I don't think Levy has plans to bring in this kind of a DoF (and I'm not sure he will at all). But I think for the system to work, and it seems to me like it's the way of the future, it needs to be done this way. It needs to be Leonardo coming in and saying, "ok, I'm bringing in these new players. Antoine, play them or don't, but remember that I'm your boss."
I think the sport, like everything, is moving toward greater specialisation while also growing bigger and bigger.Thelonious said:
I don't think that the current setup of having the manager answerable to basically no one other than the owner (or his/her proxy) is not long for this world. And with Spurs, we have already moved past that, since the proxy (Levy) is an active participant in the running of the club, not merely a token with fiduciary responsibility.
WindyCOYS
The Fighting Cock
spooky said:
In collaboration IMO.
They discuss - they come up with the sorts of players that would improve the team (I'd expect the DoF to be doing a lot of the scouting as the coach will be too busy doing all that tactical shit - LOLHARRYLOL), and the DoF goes out and gets the guy.
#DreamWorld.
Yes, this is important, but I think it's also not a discussion of equals. I've never worked in business, but I imagine good managers ask their teams what they need, and they work with their teams to provide their needs. But the manager (DoF in this example) is ultimately in charge, and she may provide her team with things the team thinks it doesn't need, trading on her knowledge of the larger strategy of the company as a whole and her own experience. Her decisions might not always be the best, nor might they always work out, but they will be hers.WindyCOYS said:
If the manager and team are equals, then chaos and a lack of accountability emerges.
Not to insist on similarities between how baseball works in North America and how football should work, but I found this interesting:
Of the 30 general managers currently in MLB, 19 have never played any professional baseball. Of the other 11, only four have played for at least five seasons in the Major Leagues. The others kicked around in the minor leagues or had very short playing careers.
Similarly, not a single current GM was a manager of a major league team. 18 of them came into baseball via scouting positions, and the other 12 came in via general administrative positions--being hired as assistants to the GM or directors of player development or similarly.
FWIW, managers are almost all ex-players, most with substantial—though not particularly brilliant—careers as players. The mentality is that a former player understands the man management side of things, but it takes an executive to run the big picture side.
Of the 30 general managers currently in MLB, 19 have never played any professional baseball. Of the other 11, only four have played for at least five seasons in the Major Leagues. The others kicked around in the minor leagues or had very short playing careers.
Similarly, not a single current GM was a manager of a major league team. 18 of them came into baseball via scouting positions, and the other 12 came in via general administrative positions--being hired as assistants to the GM or directors of player development or similarly.
FWIW, managers are almost all ex-players, most with substantial—though not particularly brilliant—careers as players. The mentality is that a former player understands the man management side of things, but it takes an executive to run the big picture side.
Hmmm come in here to read about the podcast, then saw loads of lengthy posts on the DoF system.
Great job lads!!
WindyCOYS
The Fighting Cock
Just finished listening - it was so good to hear all of your voices again *sighs*
Gotta say I totally agree with Dan on the DoF thing - i.e. the "I'm not saying it's the best approach, but let's not rule it out". It seemed like the anti-DoF argument is basically that teams that have done well with a DoF haven't done well because of DoF system, but teams who have done badly with it have done badly because of the DoF system.
Surely we saw SOME benefits of the system under Arnesen when Santini failed, was cut loose, and Jol was brought in within the same system - continuity, etc.
Anyway, fantatic comeback pod on the whole, with some excellent chat on the Redknapp situation (fair play to tehTrunk for putting across the other side of the argument for the purposes of balance).
Loved it.
Gotta say I totally agree with Dan on the DoF thing - i.e. the "I'm not saying it's the best approach, but let's not rule it out". It seemed like the anti-DoF argument is basically that teams that have done well with a DoF haven't done well because of DoF system, but teams who have done badly with it have done badly because of the DoF system.
Surely we saw SOME benefits of the system under Arnesen when Santini failed, was cut loose, and Jol was brought in within the same system - continuity, etc.Anyway, fantatic comeback pod on the whole, with some excellent chat on the Redknapp situation (fair play to tehTrunk for putting across the other side of the argument for the purposes of balance).
Loved it.
I don't see what the big deal is about whether we have a DoF or not. Harry Redknapp stated that he wouldn't work under a DoF but Levy did pretty much everything you'd expect from a DoF anyway. Plenty of Spurs' signings had Levy's name written all over them, and Harry probably had nothing to do with them. So bringing in a DoF would change nothing much, except Levy wouldn't be doing those roles.
And I think people easily forget that players like Kaboul, Bale, Lennon, Modric, Berbatov, Dawson, Hudd and BAE (I'm sure I've missed some) were all bought under a DoF system. Whilst we have done better on the pitch since we got rid of a DoF, I think an argument can be made that our transfer record is worse than when we had Commolli.
And I think people easily forget that players like Kaboul, Bale, Lennon, Modric, Berbatov, Dawson, Hudd and BAE (I'm sure I've missed some) were all bought under a DoF system. Whilst we have done better on the pitch since we got rid of a DoF, I think an argument can be made that our transfer record is worse than when we had Commolli.
Reading this thread it's like we spoke about nothing else on the pod. 
