#15 - Nineteen Eighty Four

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yeah. just a couple of things to add to the bullet points raised by #Levy_Out

Transfers:
"In ENIC’s entire 13 years with Tottenham Hotspur they have spent a total of £313million, but importantly they have recouped a staggering £414million in player sales."

£414M in player sales. Around half of that figure comes from selling four players, right? Modric, Bale, Berbatov, Carrick, all of whom were purchased for a fraction of the price. So basically what is being said here is that #Levy_Out doesn't like the idea of good business in the transfer market and would much rather sign more players like Sergey Rebrov.

Backing Managers:
"Even during the Redknapp era where some sensible investment would surely have secured a third place finish (Spurs were 10 points clear of 4th placed Woolwich at Christmas), Levy opted to bring in Ryan Nelsen and Louis Saha for nothing rather than back their manager financially".

Harry Reknapp was given more money to spend on players than any other manager in the club's history. An estimated £125M or, over one third of the entire expense incurred since ENIC took control (as claimed before - £313M) was spent during his time as manager of Tottenham. Is that a sign of not backing the then manager?

"Levy rarely finds the resources to sufficiently back his managers"

This, as is shown above, just simply isn't true. How can spending over £100M on players in transfers be not backing a manager? It's OK saying those players are crap now but, at the time of signing them, not ONE Spurs fan had anything negative to say. Anyone remember this White Hart Lane chant?

"You've got Fernandinho, We've got Paulinho, funk off Mourinho, We've got Paulinho

Managers:
"During 13 years at the club Levy has hired 11 permanent managers".

Yes. and by the looks of the internet, that will soon be 12 if the 'fans' have anything to do with it. The same opinion was shown to Villas-Boas, Sherwood and Redknapp. The fans wanted these men out of the club, as they are doing now with Pochettino.

But, I digress. 11 Managers? Is that a realistic figure or is it used in a vein attempt to prove something?

Hoddle - 2 years
Santini - resigned (14 weeks?)
Jol - 3 years
Ramos - 1 year
Redknapp - 4 years
Villas-Boas - 18 months
Pochettino - ???

I make that 7, one of which quit so you could argue; 6.

Chairman's salary, success and stability:
"Levy’s ever increasing wages are currently in excess of £2million per annum, despite his obvious inability to bring about any success or stability to the club."

Chairman's salary:
Correct me if I'm wrong but, Tottenham Hotspur is a board controlled business, right? So the idea of a chairman simply "giving himself a raise" doesn't seem that plausible. I mean, what would the other board members think of this? Do they discuss it? Of course they do.

Success:
"Enic have the very worst trophy haul of any owners in the post war era" "Their average league finish over the 13 year span of control is 7th"

So by this logic, a lucky ricochet off Gary Mabbut's thigh is the deciding factor of success? Or Tommy Hutchison scoring a header in both gaols? Is that how success is measured or, is it better to measure this across 38 games of a season?

When was the last time Tottenham had an average league finish of 7th over 13 years? Can you remember? Further more, Tottenham have finished in the top six during 7 of the last 9 seasons. Again, when has that ever happened? Have you ever seen a Spurs team with a statistic like that? No, you haven't, because it hasn't happened in your lifetime. (unless you are proper old)

Any professional footballer, manager or anyone with any sense will tell you that winning a league title is the highest accolade football has to offer.

stability:
Irvine Scholar and Alan Sugar is as far back as my connection to the club goes so any other chairman I can't really comment about however, are you seriously suggesting that under ENIC we are less stable than when under the other two eras?

You must be blind if you can not see that since ENIC has been in control of Tottenham, they have not only recouped massive debts on the club but have also put Spurs in a position of being one of the most financially stable clubs in the country. On top of that, ENIC has, and is continuing to, installed superb infrastructure at the club. Tottenham now have on of the best raining facilities in the world.

Ticket Prices:
"The price of Tottenham’s lowest season ticket has increased by just over 77% since ENIC took over the club in 2001."

This has no meaning without comparison, right? I mean, which club's ticket prices haven't increased since 2001? Have they increased at the same percentage as at The Lane? Probably not. Are Tottenham's hikes in price that much more than those of other teams? Again, probably not. I'm not sure our chairman can be held responsible for the current climate in the English game.

StubHub:
"Tickets are available for the big games on Stubhub for as much as £1,000"

As I understand it, the ticket allocation system allows Spurs members access to buying tickets first, after which, tickets go on general sale. For a 'big game' tickets are extremely difficult to get hold of yet, according to the above claim, are still being sold for "as much as £1,000". So, by that logic, isn't it actually Tottenham fans themselves ripping off other Tottenham fans as they are the ones more likely than most to be able to buy the tickets? Where does the chairman's blame for this lie exactly?


I will leave with a couple of questions for #Levy_Out

Since when have Tottenham been "one of the big clubs"?

Why weren't these issues surfaced after the 3-1 win against Inter-Milan?

Why do you support Tottenham?
 
Finally got around to listening to this in it's entirety and I just want to say: I fucking love Martin Cloake. All his books are superb and every time he's on a podcast I'm always so impressed. Adding him to the trust was a real stroke of genius.

It's a great feeling to know that we have people as dedicated, passionate and intelligent as Kat and Martin advocating for us behind the scenes. Excellent stuff.
 
I have to say I'm always a little uneasy with semi socialist uprisings of supporters of a football club, I think things would potentially be a lot worse if our fans were actually involved in key decisions.

The chap from Enic Out makes some reasonable points - but he has no clue what else to suggest as an alternative.

As Thelonious said FFP has limited what a rich benefactor can do, look at what City are actually doing now - they had to cut back on their squad this summer and are instead redeveloping all of the area around their stadium. Unless I'm mistaken Enic actually put in the maximum investment into the club (£40m) through a share option last year, I'm not sure where people think they are hiding money - there are never any dividends paid out.
 
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Forget standing outside Barclays protesting.

Made me chuckle that - the thick Scousers don't even know that the Barclays nearest to Anfield and Goodison isn't even open on the weekend.

Barclays Bank
2 County Road
Liverpool
L4 3QJ

Telephone: 0345 7 345 345

Monday:09:30 - 16:30
Tuesday:09:30 - 16:30
Wednesday:09:30 - 16:30
Thursday:09:30 - 16:30
Friday:09:30 - 16:30
Saturday:Closed
Sunday:Closed
 
ENIC_OUT_OUT ?
Micky-Flanagan_4.jpg
 
yeah. just a couple of things to add to the bullet points raised by #Levy_Out

Transfers:
"In ENIC’s entire 13 years with Tottenham Hotspur they have spent a total of £313million, but importantly they have recouped a staggering £414million in player sales."

£414M in player sales. Around half of that figure comes from selling four players, right? Modric, Bale, Berbatov, Carrick, all of whom were purchased for a fraction of the price. So basically what is being said here is that #Levy_Out doesn't like the idea of good business in the transfer market and would much rather sign more players like Sergey Rebrov.

The club is run on a business model that requires the sell-on profit from our best players to finance the next manager appointed (to replace the one that was sacked/run away) meaning we have a culture of existing as a stepping stone meaning players signing for us are always thinking about the next move on. This means that the mentality of the club is a defeatist one. If we all agree the only way we can make money and compete is to follow this model then we'd be content enough to get on with it and roll with the punches. However, we're not because most feel that because of the lack of emphasis on the football itself, we are caught in a constant loop, a repetition of a 'brand new dawn' that always ends in darkness. I don't doubt the fact we try. Levy does love to try. But the disconnect between him and the coach is always easy to see.


Backing Managers:
"Even during the Redknapp era where some sensible investment would surely have secured a third place finish (Spurs were 10 points clear of 4th placed Woolwich at Christmas), Levy opted to bring in Ryan Nelsen and Louis Saha for nothing rather than back their manager financially".

Harry Reknapp was given more money to spend on players than any other manager in the club's history. An estimated £125M or, over one third of the entire expense incurred since ENIC took control (as claimed before - £313M) was spent during his time as manager of Tottenham. Is that a sign of not backing the then manager?

"Levy rarely finds the resources to sufficiently back his managers"

This, as is shown above, just simply isn't true. How can spending over £100M on players in transfers be not backing a manager? It's OK saying those players are crap now but, at the time of signing them, not ONE Spurs fan had anything negative to say. Anyone remember this White Hart Lane chant?

"You've got Fernandinho, We've got Paulinho, funk off Mourinho, We've got Paulinho


Most know that Levy and Redknapp had 2 completely different transfer visions. Levy signed players Redknapp didn't want and Redknapp always wanted the cheap, old and cheerful. Yes, he finds the resources and does spend money. Usually he's the one doing the shopping. We all thought the £100M spree would be glorious. Turns out that AVB wasn't invited on the jolly.


Managers:
"During 13 years at the club Levy has hired 11 permanent managers".

Yes. and by the looks of the internet, that will soon be 12 if the 'fans' have anything to do with it. The same opinion was shown to Villas-Boas, Sherwood and Redknapp. The fans wanted these men out of the club, as they are doing now with Pochettino.

But, I digress. 11 Managers? Is that a realistic figure or is it used in a vein attempt to prove something?

Hoddle - 2 years
Santini - resigned (14 weeks?)
Jol - 3 years
Ramos - 1 year
Redknapp - 4 years
Villas-Boas - 18 months
Pochettino - ???

I make that 7, one of which quit so you could argue; 6.


AVB quit because of the clusterfuck in-house. Mostly AVB's fault for not accepting help but the lack of support was just as much as a killer. We bring someone in to develop a new progressive blueprint to match up to Hotspur Ways potential and completely balls it up. Everyone involved is accountable. You can bang on about how great we're doing under ENIC compared to Scholar/Sugar in both finances and league positions but that doesn't mean we have to accept it all because 'it's better than it was and we don't deserve anything more'. You can't keep rebooting and sodding about with a DoF system and just blame the coaches appointed for not being up to the job whilst most watching from the outside can't figure out if the players signed are the completely unequivocally signed off choices of said coach.

Yes, the fans are idiots and the self-fulfilling prophecy is to 'sack the coach'. In same ways maybe we all deserve ENIC because they have as much patience and love to deflect the blame much like the fans.


Chairman's salary, success and stability:
"Levy’s ever increasing wages are currently in excess of £2million per annum, despite his obvious inability to bring about any success or stability to the club."


No opinion on this at all. It's an investment firm. He runs it. What do people expect.

Chairman's salary:
Correct me if I'm wrong but, Tottenham Hotspur is a board controlled business, right? So the idea of a chairman simply "giving himself a raise" doesn't seem that plausible. I mean, what would the other board members think of this? Do they discuss it? Of course they do.

Again. Don't give a shit.

Success:
"Enic have the very worst trophy haul of any owners in the post war era" "Their average league finish over the 13 year span of control is 7th"

So by this logic, a lucky ricochet off Gary Mabbut's thigh is the deciding factor of success? Or Tommy Hutchison scoring a header in both gaols? Is that how success is measured or, is it better to measure this across 38 games of a season?

When was the last time Tottenham had an average league finish of 7th over 13 years? Can you remember? Further more, Tottenham have finished in the top six during 7 of the last 9 seasons. Again, when has that ever happened? Have you ever seen a Spurs team with a statistic like that? No, you haven't, because it hasn't happened in your lifetime. (unless you are proper old)

Any professional footballer, manager or anyone with any sense will tell you that winning a league title is the highest accolade football has to offer.


Agreed. This is a non-event of a complaint. We are competing against clubs with untold riches that have come by way of corruption and oil barons. Add to it Sky Sports changing the game and leaving a gulf that took a decade for us to cross. But we got there, more or less. We had momentum and tbf we have been desperately unlucky not to make a couple more cup finals than we have and also get into the CL more than once. Had we had the luck we wouldn't be discussing most of the complaints. However, from a management perspective there are plenty of misdemeanours where we failed to speculate and take a risk when most needed to consolidated. Is this because of lack of experience? Pressure? Lack of backing from the board? A combination? Is it a learning curve we are still working our way through? Perhaps yes. But take a closer look and you'll find the same inceptions. Our most successful appointments have been accidental.


stability:
Irvine Scholar and Alan Sugar is as far back as my connection to the club goes so any other chairman I can't really comment about however, are you seriously suggesting that under ENIC we are less stable than when under the other two eras?

You must be blind if you can not see that since ENIC has been in control of Tottenham, they have not only recouped massive debts on the club but have also put Spurs in a position of being one of the most financially stable clubs in the country. On top of that, ENIC has, and is continuing to, installed superb infrastructure at the club. Tottenham now have on of the best raining facilities in the world.

Scholar had all the right ideas and the wrong implementations. He was ahead of the game but his naivety almost killed the club. Sugar fixed us up (I was outside the high court for the El Tel debacle, turns out our messiah wasn't as clean as we believed him to be). They've done great but they've done great in terms of building up their asset rather than using the football to build us up.


Ticket Prices:
"The price of Tottenham’s lowest season ticket has increased by just over 77% since ENIC took over the club in 2001."

This has no meaning without comparison, right? I mean, which club's ticket prices haven't increased since 2001? Have they increased at the same percentage as at The Lane? Probably not. Are Tottenham's hikes in price that much more than those of other teams? Again, probably not. I'm not sure our chairman can be held responsible for the current climate in the English game.

Most expensive season tickets in the country. I guess it is our fault that we buy them.

StubHub:
"Tickets are available for the big games on Stubhub for as much as £1,000"

As I understand it, the ticket allocation system allows Spurs members access to buying tickets first, after which, tickets go on general sale. For a 'big game' tickets are extremely difficult to get hold of yet, according to the above claim, are still being sold for "as much as £1,000". So, by that logic, isn't it actually Tottenham fans themselves ripping off other Tottenham fans as they are the ones more likely than most to be able to buy the tickets? Where does the chairman's blame for this lie exactly?


By allowing Stubhub to facilitate the transactions they're creating a market for it for a one off payment. Guilty. No more questions your honour.

I will leave with a couple of questions for #Levy_Out

Since when have Tottenham been "one of the big clubs"?

Why weren't these issues surfaced after the 3-1 win against Inter-Milan?

Why do you support Tottenham?



Not for me to answer.
 
Thought the pod was fantastic to be honest, even if I didn't agree with a chunk of what was being said. If you only ever hear the arguments you want to hear you'll never know if you're right or not.
 
but you have to bear in mind that not every point of view can be challenged, otherwise it would be a 5 hour podcast.
I do, and have nothing but massive respect for the job you guys did. Tough topics, but handled better than "professional media" do (truly), but with the usual fun character mixed in.

To steal a slogan that was "Més que un podcast."

 
Interesting idea about protesting with gooners to reduce ticket prices.

Have never been able to quantify it, but this proposal allows you to put a dollar value on how much you hate the scum. Would you hate them less if it saved you 5 quid a week? Where do you draw the line.

As always a thought provoking pod (and I'm only 30 minutes in)

Thought the the person from the trust was sucking on helium initially, then realized she's a girl. Goes to show how much of a sausage fest TFC is week to week. Here's an idea for a pod one week, you lot stay home and have your missuses do the recording. Mrs windy dropping the knowledge..... Mrs engineer al mixing some beats... Mr flav giving the reach around etc etc
 
I like the podcast, like the banter between you guys, but the whinging about Levy and ENIC is ridiculously disproportionately unbalanced.

I don't agree with some of the things Levy/ENIC have done, but only an idiot can't see that they have done many good things, we watched the best payers we've watched for about 30 years, had a consistently decent squad for the last 8 years or so, played the best football for 30 years, had our most consistent league finishes since the 60's, invested in the infrastructure of the club, built one of the best training facilities in Europe, put in place the foundations to build a new stadium to enable us to compete with the uber clubs in the FFP era. They have done all this whilst staying within a financially sustainable model, without lumbering the club with massive debt.

Even most of the things you don't agree with, you can invariably see the logic or some rationale behind the decisions taken.

The ENIC OUT bloke (Neil) just came across as a sad, attention seeking idiot who talks a lot of made up bollocks. If a manager does well it's not Levy appointing him. If he does shit ? That's Levy appointing him. He said Levy didn't want to appoint Redknapp. Who does he think did appoint him ? They both said after the appointment that they'd had various conversations over the years about the job.

He (Neil) said we achieved CL without a DOF, ignoring the fact that most of the players that achieved it were bought under the DOF system, including Bale & Modric etc. The rant about Cortese achieving more in 4 years was also rubbish. And then when the bird from THST says Levy came across as a reasonable guy, that couldn't be true either.

He also said that Levy is purely reactive (not proactive). Building a 45m training centre is hardly a panic reaction. Nor is spending years trying to build a new stadium - design, planning, permissions, local infrastructure etc etc.

The fucking biggest irony is that this guy said he was part of the action group that got Scholar out and part of the action group that got Sugar out. It's his fucking fault that ENIC are in.

What exactly does he want in an owner/chairman ?
 
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