Roberto Soldado

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gibbs131 said:
You have to realize a lot of the stick I get from people like CJJ is just froth from lost arguments regarding the problem players like Townsend, Rose, Lennon etc along with sour grapes regarding AVB.

The tiny dancers ref = Defoe, Townsend, rose, Lennon, soldado.

The dust had settled. Was I wrong? Prem Goals combined last season they probably matched one top four strikers output.

I was actually wrong about Soldado. Before the season kicked off I had faith in him. It took until winter to get me to admit he was not suited for the prem.
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No, I understand that perfectly. I concede that you have a point, but I think you're potentially carrying it too far in your preference for strength. Your other points are lost in translation.

I could care less if a player is a "tiny dancer," so long as they actually back it up with creativity and there's balance in the starting 11. I think that we've had a lot of players that conform to the old model of English football, placing an emphasis on speed above everything else, but as our playing style has shifted from a counter-attacking style toward a more dominant possession and attacking style, those attributes don't have as much use when the opposition is hemmed in tight in their own third.

I would just like to see some players on the pitch with clear strengths, rather than a bunch of jack-of-all-trades midfielders that don't appear to be fulfilling a clear role in the squad. By any definition, you could define Eriksen as a "tiny dancer", but he backs it up by performing a clear role and performing that role very well as the creative focal point for our side. I'm not sure that people could agree so readily on whatever role that Dembele and Paulinho seem to be performing, but I do think that most people could agree that Townsend and Lennon seem to be operating under the belief their their role is to see how often they can fake out defenders.

I think that there's space in our starting 11 for one such player that deputizes across the field, but all in all in one form or another our squad under AVB and Sherwood successively appears to be a failed attempt at implementing total football, with most of our players fluidly adjusting their roles to suit the situation, rather than having a clear understanding of each other's movements and how to link-up to string together passes and create attacking opportunities, with the end result that whenever I watch Spurs I imagine that the unspoken dialogue of the players must be something like "Ok, I received the ball, try a one-two? No, wait, why are you dropping back? Should I get forward... umm, ok dead end now, let's dump the ball off to Lennon. Ok, now he's in a dead end, maybe I should run into space. Is Paulinho covering me? Fuck no, looks like he's trying to run into space... Should I drop back to cover, then? Sure. Ok, covering. Sideways pass, sideways pass, sideways pass. I'm going to try a long diagonal. No wait, now they're man-marking Chadli tightly. I'll try to beat my man and hand the ball off to Eriksen, oh fuck now Adebayor is coming deep for the ball and there's no attacking outlet, so maybe I should try to thread a through ball into Lennon. Ok, he faked out the defender five times and handed the ball back, so I'm just going to SHOOOOOTTTT!!! .... Ah fuck, it was worth a try."
 
VirginiaSpur said:
No, I understand that perfectly. I concede that you have a point, but I think you're potentially carrying it too far in your preference for strength. Your other points are lost in translation.

I could care less if a player is a "tiny dancer," so long as they actually back it up with creativity and there's balance in the starting 11. I think that we've had a lot of players that conform to the old model of English football, placing an emphasis on speed above everything else, but as our playing style has shifted from a counter-attacking style toward a more dominant possession and attacking style, those attributes don't have as much use when the opposition is hemmed in tight in their own third.

I would just like to see some players on the pitch with clear strengths, rather than a bunch of jack-of-all-trades midfielders that don't appear to be fulfilling a clear role in the squad. By any definition, you could define Eriksen as a "tiny dancer", but he backs it up by performing a clear role and performing that role very well as the creative focal point for our side. I'm not sure that people could agree so readily on whatever role that Dembele and Paulinho seem to be performing, but I do think that most people could agree that Townsend and Lennon seem to be operating under the belief their their role is to see how often they can fake out defenders.

I think that there's space in our starting 11 for one such player that deputizes across the field, but all in all in one form or another our squad under AVB and Sherwood successively appears to be a failed attempt at implementing total football, with most of our players fluidly adjusting their roles to suit the situation, rather than having a clear understanding of each other's movements and how to link-up to string together passes and create attacking opportunities, with the end result that whenever I watch Spurs I imagine that the unspoken dialogue of the players must be something like "Ok, I received the ball, try a one-two? No, wait, why are you dropping back? Should I get forward... umm, ok dead end now, let's dump the ball off to Lennon. Ok, now he's in a dead end, maybe I should run into space. Is Paulinho covering me? Fuck no, looks like he's trying to run into space... Should I drop back to cover, then? Sure. Ok, covering. Sideways pass, sideways pass, sideways pass. I'm going to try a long diagonal. No wait, now they're man-marking Chadli tightly. I'll try to beat my man and hand the ball off to Eriksen, oh fuck now Adebayor is coming deep for the ball and there's no attacking outlet, so maybe I should try to thread a through ball into Lennon. Ok, he faked out the defender five times and handed the ball back, so I'm just going to SHOOOOOTTTT!!! .... Ah fuck, it was worth a try."
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I agree. The reason I don't call Eriksen or VDV etc tiny dancers is because they don't just dance around and look pretty. They weigh in with goals, assists and help in set peices etc.

Soldado would go months without helping the team and we did ok dispite the dead weight of him, Lennon, Townsend dragging us down. Lamella was also useless and I think poch can only do so much to turn around player form.

And part of that I believe Lamela and Eriksen need protection and a base to perform.
 
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gibbs131 said:
And AVB got the most prem points we have had with 72 points.

He just got the tiny dancer curse that stopped him from getting over the hump.
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He had a player that was sold for a world record fee ahead of a midfield he overhauled. "Tiny dancers" aren't the problem, it's the ineptitude from the central midfield to get the ball into advantageous positions. I do agree we've too many "softies" in the side and not enough "cunts," but VS is spot on when he says you take it over the top in your reaction to it. There is a fine balance, and while I agree with you that we're a bit too far in the "weak" direction, your solution is far too much in the opposite direction.

Cue the analogy again, that your "concept of spine" is to rip out the spinal cord and replace it with concrete. There are better solutions to entirely removing sources of creativity for the sake of "battering rams."

I know you say you want Lamela and Eriksen in these positions and they can provide the creativity, but if you give them no one who can consistently get them the ball from in behind with your idea of static fullbacks and duel destroyers in CM, they will not consistently get the ball to Lamela and Eriksen so they can find space to exploit against the compact defenses we face as a top six side. Plain and simple bro: it. will. not. work.
 
If we want strong players in the team then how about Adebayo Akinfenwa from AFC Wimbledon?
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cahspur said:
"Tiny dancers" aren't the problem, it's the ineptitude from the central midfield to get the ball into advantageous positions. I do agree we've too many "softies" in the side and not enough "cunts," but VS is spot on when he says you take it over the top in your reaction to it. There is a fine balance, and while I agree with you that we're a bit too far in the "weak" direction, your solution is far too much in the opposite direction.

Cue the analogy again, that your "concept of spine" is to rip out the spinal cord and replace it with concrete. There are better solutions to entirely removing sources of creativity for the sake of "battering rams."

I know you say you want Lamela and Eriksen in these positions and they can provide the creativity, but if you give them no one who can consistently get them the ball from in behind with your idea of static fullbacks and duel destroyers in CM, they will not consistently get the ball to Lamela and Eriksen so they can find space to exploit against the compact defenses we face as a top six side. Plain and simple bro: it. will. not. work.
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If you think a winger with zero assists and 1 Prem goal is not the problem, that about sums you up. Defoe? At one point he scored 1 prem goal in almost a calendar year. Lennon? Rose?

You think the problem are Sandro, Paulinho, Capoue, Dembele and Bentaleb?

Most of who got to the final stages of the World Cup? These are the rocks Eriksen and Lamela can express themselves with.

The problem was they had soldado, Lennon, Townsend and rose fucking everything up all season.
 
The prototypical midfield trio consists of one passer, one disciplined holding "destroyer" that drops deep in possession to become a third centerback, and one "box-to-box" midfielder that deputizes across the field. This balance is such that a creative presence can dictate tempo and jump-start attacking movement into the final third, while a designated holding midfielder bolsters the two centerbacks to protect against attacks, and a third man can look for open space to occupy.

Instead of that set-up we coupled two such box-to-box midfielders with a holding-midfielder in Sandro - and Bentaleb thereafter - that likes to launch into attacking runs, which means we're dangerously close to having three box-to-box midfielders in midfield at any given time, rather than any of them having any clear understanding of where they're supposed to be on the pitch, or what they're supposed to be doing at any given time.

This is why I'm so skeptical of your opinions on the matter gibbsy, because although I believe that we are in full agreement on the likes of Rose, Naughton, Lennon, Townsend, et al, I look at our experiences last season and can't imagine how anybody can look at our lineups and think that there's a lack of muscle. Rather, I think that the issue is one of too much brawn and too little brain, with the "tiny dancers" providing not one or the other. Spurs were perhaps better than average last season at chasing down and breaking up possession, and subsequently holding possession, but as for actually doing anything dangerous with the ball, most of our squad looked clueless bar Eriksen and Adebayor. And, without that designated holding midfielder to bolster our defense, the centerbacks were exposed and vulnerable. Strength is all well and good, but your ideas of creating a battering ram seem like pure fantasy, and are of limited use in attacking threat. To leverage strength and physicality in midfield the player has to be on the ball dribbling, but an axiom of football is that the football can be moved much more quickly through passing than dribbling, which allows defenses time to form and react to threats, whereas passing often does not. Strength and physicality can be useful in the penalty box, muscling defenders around or at least matching their physicality, but it doesn't help break down an organized defense like creative passing does.

This is all compounded by the fact that Spurs don't really have a player that can be considered a designated finisher, as Bale was. Ade is world class on his day, but his finishing has never been the strongest part of his game. This is part and parcel of why I so desperately want Soldado to come good, and potential exists in the form of Chadli and Lamela who both offer an impressive goal-scoring pedigree, even if they haven't replicated that form in the Premier League so far.

In short, Pooch has his hands full, and I think you'd have us try to fix the problem by repeating many of the same mistakes.
 
I disagree when you say I'm repeating the same mistakes.

I want to strip the traditional wingers and wingbacks that we currently have.

It's never been done at a Spurs since I've been supporting.

So I want real change. The managers come and go and get sacked relying heavily on the wingers we can afford.
 
gibbs131 said:
I disagree when you say I'm repeating the same mistakes.

I want to strip the traditional wingers and wingbacks that we currently have.
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The former is all well and good and I am in complete agreement. As for the latter, it is my fear that eliminating wingbacks and adopting a flat back four is counterproductive and would amount to papering over the cracks in our set-up, rather than actually addressing the problem. Address the problem with Rose and bring in a fresh face at centerback and I think that's a back line that we can work with. We should work to the strengths of our squad, and Walker for example offers quite a lot of energy going forward; our squad simply has to operate as a unit and they've not been doing that, and we need a midfield player that can restrain himself and operate in a deeper role in partnership with the centerbacks.

I can only hope that Pooch is of a similar mind, and that Davies and Schneiderlin (?) are the players to do this.
 
gibbs131 said:
If you think a winger with zero assists and 1 Prem goal is not the problem, that about sums you up. Defoe? At one point he scored 1 prem goal in almost a calendar year. Lennon? Rose?

You think the problem are Sandro, Paulinho, Capoue, Dembele and Bentaleb?

Most of who got to the final stages of the World Cup? These are the rocks Eriksen and Lamela can express themselves with.

The problem was they had soldado, Lennon, Townsend and rose fucking everything up all season.
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You shift the direction of the discussion.

The problem is not the individuals, it's the lack of a balance in that midfield. For instance, for playing in the same position, we have Paulinho, who can get it done in the final third, but is quite poor in getting the ball there. Then we have Dembele, who's top notch at getting the ball to the final third, but then shockingly poor at doing anything with it once he gets there. Bentaleb is too young, and as of yet he's not shown he has end product. He is not our first choice solution.

Again, if you adequately understood the game, you'd comprehend the issues some of those players you rate poorly faced and consequently the results. When you tie for worst in the league in through-balls, it's no wonder the wide players were constantly facing double teams and thus contributed poorly against them. When the spaces aren't being opened via central threat, the opposition faces the width and easily shuts it done. Very simple. We were entirely too predictable, and this starts with having a central midfield of no balance.

You want your balance to come vertically with two "shelves" of players, with your static physical specimens to sit in behind a shelf of creative smaller players to just run around a bit and hopefully get it done. This will not work, Gibbs. I'm not sure why you have to be told this by so many people, so many times. The balance has to be interspersed, not layered. It is not an effective plan in football, and especially since you've never offered a plan for how it's going to work other than they'll "smash it in there."
 
'Scuse me guys, can you stop talking football and tactics in Bobby's thread?

I'm worried that no one has mentioned 'Open play' for at least a page
 
VirginiaSpur said:
The former is all well and good and I am in complete agreement. As for the latter, it is my fear that eliminating wingbacks and adopting a flat back four is counterproductive and would amount to papering over the cracks in our set-up, rather than actually addressing the problem. Address the problem with Rose and bring in a fresh face at centerback and I think that's a back line that we can work with. We should work to the strengths of our squad, and Walker for example offers quite a lot of energy going forward; our squad simply has to operate as a unit and they've not been doing that, and we need a midfield player that can restrain himself and operate in a deeper role in partnership with the centerbacks.

I can only hope that Pooch is of a similar mind, and that Davies and Schneiderlin (?) are the players to do this.
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Most want eriksen and Lamela in the team like I do. But a lot of others want Kono, soldado etc as well.

You can put Maldini at leftback and he would get overun with some of the lineups people in this thread want.
 
CJJ said:
'Scuse me guys, can you stop talking football and tactics in Bobby's thread?

I'm worried that no one has mentioned 'Open play' for at least a page
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Ok. Soldado scored one prem goal from open play last year the next goal in open play would come over a 1000 mins later.
 
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