"Yid" chanting...

[tehTrunk]

I know this might seem a weird example..
But Trevor Tanner you know.. the FACKIN NAWTY one..

In a TV program he said he hated being called a yid, and went it came time to name there firm. They named it the Yid Army. Reclaiming the word.
Now I don't know that much about the Tottenham Firm. But I do know that we have reclaimed the word 'Yid'.


Ask 20 people under the age of 18 what the word Yid means. They'll tell you a Spurs fan.
Ask 20 people over the age of 35 what the word Yid means. They'll say a racial slur.

In time it will be more widely accepted.

But thats my opinion.. What do I know?

Amongst a TINY demographic of people around the world.

 

[pallmallpunch]

So do you think those rounded up based on stereotypical, physical traits attributed to race, who were then shipped off to death camps made a 'personal choice' ?

Of course not, and I tried to speak to that by saying the Nazis got it wrong to begin with by confusing a religious community with a race of people. Stereotypical "Jewish" physical traits are really the traits of many Eastern European or Eastern Germanic people - Jewish, Christian, or otherwise. They supremely fucked up in their logic and have left us with the legacy in which we view Jews as a single, defined race of people, which they have not been for thousands of years. Imagine if i said Muslims are a race of people, like in your original post. I was actually just playing off that question you raised. Doesn't make anti-Semitism any less shitty, in fact kinda makes it worse because some of it is based on faulty and illogical history.

I'm not in favor of the use of the word if it offends people, but I also am not sure how many people it actually offends, as I'm kinda disconnected from London. So personally like I said I'm on the fence about it. I think the only context I'd ever see myself using it is to describe players who play hard, hate/show public disdain for Woolwich, and genuinely enjoy being at Spurs.

 

[78Spur]

This is a debate we had only a few weeks back but it is always going to be contentious... So I'll try to make my points here

The Word

I know when we chant it we're not meaning to be offensive, this is accepted by pretty much everyone in football who understand the history of Tottenham Hotspur and our original reasons for the chant are honourable and something that we can have some pride in.

The fact is we're not in the 70s/80s now, Spurs and society has moved on, 'Yid' is an offensive term and while we don't mean it to be, it might be a reason as to why we do still hear the hissing, which is frankly disgraceful.

If we no longer use the word and other opposing fans do, all it does is show some fans (thinking West Ham and Chelsea) for what they are, racist, anti-semitic and ignorant, they will have no longer have the excuse, 'well if spurs fans want to take that label, we are going to attack them for it'.

I'm not saying the chant will stop but I think over time it will die out and as much as some people reading this won't like this I think it's for the best.

Offensive Crowd Chanting

Football is a place where offensive things are said and chanted, one person's offensive can be very different to anothers and I really think that crowds love to chant things because they offer annonymity, you can't arrest an entire bloc of fans. Why do you think a whole bunch of Chelsea fans chanted during the silence on Sunday? Because there were enough of them to get away with it.

I've heard crowds singing about Adebayor, wishing he died in the Togo incident, heard the hissing noises from several sets of fans and the Campbell song by our own. None of those are right.

I think sometimes crowds can be funny, near the knuckle and offensive, some of that needs to remain, we're dealing with rivals and let's not hide that. But there are some things which just aren't right, I said last time, for my part I think wishing death on a player is always going to be too far.

 

[Ben]

While I see lots of statements saying it is offensive, I am never able to ascertain why its offensive. Every article I have read on this states that its nothing more than a shortened vesrion of "yiddish", and is sometimes used as a term of endearment\respect within such communities.

Would Mr Baddiel rather see it used by us to deflect antisemitism, or by those other hate filled knuckle-draggers as a veichle for antisemitism.

That said, not being of jewish descent it's not my place to argue what they may or may not find offensive. and if anyone explained to me that I was offending them by using the term I would cut it out immidiately.

I cant help but feel that its just certain characters that dont like having their heritage taken in vein.

 

[Kalyl]

So do you think those rounded up based on stereotypical, physical traits attributed to race, who were then shipped off to death camps made a 'personal choice' ?

I know it sounds dramatic, but I find your point somewhat naive.

I find your point there lacking, I never said anything about what the nazis did or didn't do or how they went about their horrible manslaughter and imprisonment, I merely claimed that FOLLOWING and adhering to a faith, is a personal choice. what the nazi's did was target anyone whom they thought they were better than, and this unfortunately extended to jews, yugoslavs and other east-block countries, handicaped and mentally ill individuals.

The final solution and subsequent holocaust was predominantly centered around the extermination of Israelite bloodlines from Western Europe.

Other peoples were destroyed on the basis of providing 'clean' gene pools, doesn't make it any less appalling, but to suggest that the Jews were specifically targeted based on a choice they've made is appallingly offensive.

First of all, I never claimed any such thing, and frankly to have you claim I did, is to me an insult. I said following the faith is a personal choice, being attacked and man-hunted because of some mentally twisted persons perception erradicates the whole question of the person who is or is not a believer chose to get attacked in itself. I pretty much equal the claim to that of saying a rape victim chose to be raped!(which incidendtly is something of a problem here in norway, as lots of morons claim this) the victim of such atrocious act is never to blame, NEVER!

 

[Smoked Salmon]

I know this might seem a weird example..
But Trevor Tanner you know.. the FACKIN NAWTY one..

In a TV program he said he hated being called a yid, and went it came time to name there firm. They named it the Yid Army. Reclaiming the word.
Now I don't know that much about the Tottenham Firm. But I do know that we have reclaimed the word 'Yid'.


Ask 20 people under the age of 18 what the word Yid means. They'll tell you a Spurs fan.
Ask 20 people over the age of 35 what the word Yid means. They'll say a racial slur.

In time it will be more widely accepted.

But thats my opinion.. What do I know?

The latter half of your username contains the word "Singh"-a Sikh surname. Would it be correct to assume you are asian? How would you feel if we called ourselves The Paki Army?

 

[Ben]

Also, for me its confusing. Growing up I felt that using the word was what was expected of me, despite it feeling slightly pretension. I undrstood that I had chosen to be part of fanbase with strong Jewish ties, and this was what I had to do to be accepted, as I honestly believed that it was what Jewish people liked to call themselves. naive perhaps.

Now, its an offensive term? its all so confusing.

 

[Ben]

I know this might seem a weird example..
But Trevor Tanner you know.. the FACKIN NAWTY one..

In a TV program he said he hated being called a yid, and went it came time to name there firm. They named it the Yid Army. Reclaiming the word.
Now I don't know that much about the Tottenham Firm. But I do know that we have reclaimed the word 'Yid'.


Ask 20 people under the age of 18 what the word Yid means. They'll tell you a Spurs fan.
Ask 20 people over the age of 35 what the word Yid means. They'll say a racial slur.

In time it will be more widely accepted.

But thats my opinion.. What do I know?

The latter half of your username contains the word "Singh"-a Sikh surname. Would it be correct to assume you are asian? How would you feel if we called ourselves The p*ki Army?

I'd feel weird. But would you bat an eyelid if the Pakistani cricket team adopted it?

 

[Schoolboy'sOwnStuff]

no swearing - no shouting?

If one can't manage a cursestorm that also manages to avoid being racist, homophobic, and misogynist, then one is perhaps not creative enough to have earned the privilege of swearing.

phuck you, I'm dyslexic!

Serously though folks... the fact that one of the reasons the Drum was banned was 'cos it incited the word Yid to be sung at WHL conveniently ignores the fact that the word is STILL regularly used at games, with or without the drum!

Besides, there's plenty worse been sung than 'Yid' this season ...oh, talking of which, anyone else explain this to me; I heard the Adebayor song (yes, the original one, THAT one) being sung at The Green Man on Sunday... was this some weird form of high-brow irony, or was the guy singing it so pissed he'd momentarily forgot Ade now plays for us... anyone else hear it/join in???

I know this is off topic, so I'll be brief.

I was in the Green Man from midday until 4.45 and was at the centre of the singing in the garden. There were three versions of that song sung, but never the original one. Either you misheard it or it was sung inside.

EDIT: or it was one person. Just re-read your post.

 

[Schoolboy'sOwnStuff]

I know this might seem a weird example..
But Trevor Tanner you know.. the FACKIN NAWTY one..

In a TV program he said he hated being called a yid, and went it came time to name there firm. They named it the Yid Army. Reclaiming the word.
Now I don't know that much about the Tottenham Firm. But I do know that we have reclaimed the word 'Yid'.


Ask 20 people under the age of 18 what the word Yid means. They'll tell you a Spurs fan.
Ask 20 people over the age of 35 what the word Yid means. They'll say a racial slur.

In time it will be more widely accepted.

But thats my opinion.. What do I know?

The latter half of your username contains the word "Singh"-a Sikh surname. Would it be correct to assume you are asian? How would you feel if we called ourselves The p*ki Army?

I'd feel weird. But would you bat an eyelid if the Pakistani cricket team adopted it?

But the Pakistani team has the RIGHT to use it. Non-Jews do not have the right to call themselves Yids.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

My post starts this makes you middle eastern of "race" not jewish. We are all generationally some form of faith, this does not make it a race. only reason jews point out the opposite is because their neighbours are christian or muslim. I myself am generationally christian, but this does neither make me christian of faith nor race. In terms of race I'm counted as of nordic descent, a viking, although I prefer the term human, as that's what we all are.
to clarify though, I'm not attacking you or disputing the fact that the term yid is in the larger scale an offensive word. it clearly became that some time in the last century and we as the lilywhite army should refrain from using it as causes offense and harm to millions when directed at them.

No, Jews are a race. I used to think like you, that it was just religion, but I went and found out for myself and I was wrong. There is an ethnic trait for Jews. They do descend from, and for the large part srtill maintin, their ethnic heritage.

As for making me Middle Eastern, that is not a race. It's like saying "western" is a race. I don't think ethnic Persians or Arabs would be happy being told that they are just the same as Jews simnce they orginate from different parts of the Middle East - and we are going back several millenia here. They most definately are racially more similar to Jews than white europeans are, but they are nonetheless ethnically different.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

I know this might seem a weird example..
But Trevor Tanner you know.. the FACKIN NAWTY one..

In a TV program he said he hated being called a yid, and went it came time to name there firm. They named it the Yid Army. Reclaiming the word.
Now I don't know that much about the Tottenham Firm. But I do know that we have reclaimed the word 'Yid'.


Ask 20 people under the age of 18 what the word Yid means. They'll tell you a Spurs fan.
Ask 20 people over the age of 35 what the word Yid means. They'll say a racial slur.

In time it will be more widely accepted.

But thats my opinion.. What do I know?

The latter half of your username contains the word "Singh"-a Sikh surname. Would it be correct to assume you are asian? How would you feel if we called ourselves The p*ki Army?

I'd feel weird. But would you bat an eyelid if the Pakistani cricket team adopted it?

Yes.

Plus, that's no more likely than the Israeli Army declaring themselves "the Yid Army" tomorrow.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Also, for me its confusing. Growing up I felt that using the word was what was expected of me, despite it feeling slightly pretension. I undrstood that I had chosen to be part of fanbase with strong Jewish ties, and this was what I had to do to be accepted, as I honestly believed that it was what Jewish people liked to call themselves. naive perhaps.

Now, its an offensive term? its all so confusing.

It isn't "now" an offensive term. it has been for at least a century.

As for Jewish people calling themselves it, as I said earlier in the thread, there is a similar term used (although pronouced differently),but this is surely not comparable to an non-Jew using the word any more than a white man saying "coon"?

 

[Kalyl]

if we're really going to go back millions of years Smoked, I'll finish it and say we're all african as that's where human life originates from... Which in all honesty, is better than all this racial segregation that the world has become...

 

[Burko]

To be honest, although it has Bolton connotations, we could always always use the "Whites" of Lilywhites...

White Army, White Army...

No racist undertones there at all.

 

[Freudlyuchenko]

To be honest, although it has Bolton connotations, we could always always use the "Whites" of Lilywhites...

White Army, White Army...

No racist undertones there at all.

Unless we became a load of white supremacists all of a sudden

 

[HyNdZee]

Here's a counter-question:

What would a group of shaven headed men swilling lager and chanting about 'anything' to anyone look like?

You don't need the word Yid for it to be offensive. Ask Charlton youth fans.

As for "rules" of what are or aren't racist or offensive words, I'd actually prefer if there weren't any and I endorse free speech. I don't think imposing laws over thoughts and words achieves anything. You can be sent to jail for trolling on Twitter and yet let off for physically assaulting someone based on their race just because more people complained and were offended by the former and the courts wanna make an example of how they aren't racist.

I don't need John Terry's FC to give me a lesson on morality with a short one-sided video. They are all distraction pieces anyway.

Everyone has a right to free speech of course, but that's not the issue.

I reserve my right to call someone a 'n*gger' should I choose to, but then I respect the right of that individual to not have to face such abuse thus don't use it.

Having the right to use a word, and using a word are two very different things my friend.

With regard to the shaven headed gentlemen, looking like a lout and looking like a racist lout are again two very different things.

Why? Why is it more offensive to use the word Yid than cunt? It's subjective dependent on the perceiver, not the person saying it. A racist will use the word cunt out of racism, despite it not being a racist word. It's the intent is the problem, not the word. Can we then ban the word "hiss" when we have people hissing at us?

Or is "hiss" not a racist word?

 

[1882]

I was in the Green Man from midday until 4.45 and was at the centre of the singing in the garden. There were three versions of that song sung, but never the original one. Either you misheard it or it was sung inside.

EDIT: or it was one person. Just re-read your post.

Yeah, sorry, shoulda said, it WAS inside (near to, but NOT the guy with the rattle) it was a bit strange, and I thought for a moment I was not privy to some kind of in-joke... but it was probably just one pissed bloke who was last sober sometime in 2008/09 when it was vaguely relevant... but STILL not acceptable in my book, sorry if that bucks the trend!!

 

[Burko]

To be honest, although it has Bolton connotations, we could always always use the "Whites" of Lilywhites...

White Army, White Army...

No racist undertones there at all.

Unless we became a load of white supremacists all of a sudden

:defoe:

 

[Kalyl]

saying it like I did might be a little... what's the word... utopic, but it's the way I feel, I'm fed up of all the hate in the world. Especially the racism bit. We're all the same in the grand scheme of things, and really, the best way to disarm the racists is by saying that we really are one and the same. claiming there are more than one human race opens up for racism, and it's so easily shut down by saying and being behind that one simple line: We are all the same, the same race, human.