TFC's Tactical Autopsy Thread

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I've just read this over lunch and came here to post it!!

It's a fucking brilliant read. The best thing about it is should serve as a pause or a time to take stock for us watching football, specifically those of us that are consumed by it and therefore become bombarded on a daily basis of bull shit. Whilst many of us can see through some of it when it is so relentlessly put out there it still has an influence on those that recognise it. It still seeps into the consciousness.

One thing that struck me was that as someone that challenges so much of what is trotted out by ex-pros (I saw Shearers analysis of Woolwich game last night and thought he was talking absolute shit about "brilliant Vardy" getting in behind their back-line because it was too high was utter shite, TDLR Vardy was awful and Leicester got behind them not because they pushed high but because always one of the Woolwich defenders dropped too deep and therefore played a Leicester player onside!) anyway, I digress. This piece does make you realise the importance of how much the game is about balance and teamwork and not about the individual.

It’s basic stuff really and I like to think I’ve not lost all of that as for example, I have maintained that Liverpool was good defensive side prior to the arrival of van Dijke and Allison, as Liverpool pressed as a collective and just like City & us (not so much this year) our defence was great because we didn’t allow many shots from the oppo. which all starts from pressing from further up the pitch.

But what with the daily bombardment from the media and in particular in their pursuit to point the fingers at individuals to either elevate a player to godlike status (van Dijke) or attempt to apportion blame on the loss of an individual player (Llrois, Sissoko or go one step further Poch or even LEVY!!) then it serves as a timely read to take a deep breath and remind or reacquaint ones self with the fact that it’s a team game. It always has been but those stats that he's pulled out in that piece really do stand off the page in now more than ever it's a collective game. Which is quite ironic as within the media and how individual players are spoken about and obsessed over (both +/-) it shows the madness in it all.

Again, apply that piece with a focus on Spurs having us competing where we are with the injuries with suffered all season long, playing away from home, World Cup & non-pre-season, we are the embodiment to a team.

Apart from placing Sissoko (who is the opposite of someone who gets blame, he gets credit for shit he isn't doing and individually praised constantly) on the VanDyke list, and maybe swapping people like Trippier and Pogba on the individual blame list (as Pogba is the scapegoat for all off Utd's ills and as we saw Saturday, it doesn't matter who we play at RB it is still a vulnerability of Poch's system etc - and by the way that doesn't mean I don't think we can't improve on Trippier) I wholeheartedly agree with everything else you wrote.

I also think we have lost some of this collective ability over the last two seasons, and that, as much as the other factors you rightly mention, is as much a reason why we've slipped further away from Liverpool and City, why performances have been very erratic and why we lost an incredible amount of games this season. It's one of the reasons I wish Poch had been braver with his academy integration. Young minds who will listen to instructions and run through brick walls for you etc.
 

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Apart from placing Sissoko (who is the opposite of someone who gets blame, he gets credit for shit he isn't doing and individually praised constantly) on the VanDyke list, and maybe swapping people like Trippier and Pogba on the individual blame list (as Pogba is the scapegoat for all off Utd's ills and as we saw Saturday, it doesn't matter who we play at RB it is still a vulnerability of Poch's system etc - and by the way that doesn't mean I don't think we can't improve on Trippier) I wholeheartedly agree with everything else you wrote.

I also think we have lost some of this collective ability over the last two seasons, and that, as much as the other factors you rightly mention, is as much a reason why we've slipped further away from Liverpool and City, why performances have been very erratic and why we lost an incredible amount of games this season. It's one of the reasons I wish Poch had been braver with his academy integration. Young minds who will listen to instructions and run through brick walls for you etc.
I choose to name Sissoko in there deliberately because prior to this year he WAS the individual targeted as the scapegoat. That's the point.
 
That's the change you would have made after 55 mins?
But it's a bit moot isn't it, because a) I wouldn't have started how we did, and b) I wouldn't have brought Llorente on for Sissoko on 40 minutes (or whenever it was). So now your asking would I, having brought Llorente on on 40 mins, sub him on 55 mins?

So whatever I say is going to seem a bit odd isn't it?
 
I choose to name Sissoko in there deliberately because prior to this year he WAS the individual targeted as the scapegoat. That's the point.
I don't think he was unfairly scapegoated, I think he was individually bad and was/is a very poor technical fit for a collective ethos that requires control of the ball and tactical intelligence without it (no coincidence we are getting worse as a team IMO) but I really want to get into a Sissoko debate, or any individual one, I think we both agree completely with the fundamentals of that excellent piece. Football has changed, coaching has advanced enormously, thanks to people like Guardiola, Klopp and Pochettino (and many other good coaches out there now) and the "proper football geezer mentality" of Redknapp's and Sherwood's (and Roy Keane's) is thankfully becoming defunct.
 
That's what I have been asking you since yesterday.
I refer you to my previous answer:

But it's a bit moot isn't it, because a) I wouldn't have started how we did, and b) I wouldn't have brought Llorente on for Sissoko on 40 minutes (or whenever it was). So now your asking would I, having brought Llorente on on 40 mins, sub him on 55 mins?

So whatever I say is going to seem a bit odd isn't it?

Ask me again and I'm taking the 5th.
 

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I don't think he was unfairly scapegoated, I think he was individually bad and was/is a very poor technical fit for a collective ethos that requires control of the ball and tactical intelligence without it (no coincidence we are getting worse as a team IMO) but I really want to get into a Sissoko debate, or any individual one, I think we both agree completely with the fundamentals of that excellent piece. Football has changed, coaching has advanced enormously, thanks to people like Guardiola, Klopp and Pochettino (and many other good coaches out there now) and the "proper football geezer mentality" of Redknapp's and Sherwood's (and Roy Keane's) is thankfully becoming defunct.
Not to get to drawn on the Sissoko stuff again too, but I do feel it's relevant. He is that same footballer today as he was when he first arrived (all be it with confidence). Technically he's still bad but he's performing well despite this, he's played around those problems, he's been coached so well by Poch a) to get him to function with his limitations b) to go beyond that and get MOTM performances out of him c) ultimately have him contribute positively to the overall performance of the team. We win because of his function/role in the team not lose because of him being unable to control a ball.

In-line with the article, the focus shouldn't be about him. I think his performances are now OTT (although the adoration will no doubt have a positive effect on the individuals' confidence which is no bad thing). We are a team greater than the sum of its parts but all of the parts need to function for a positive result.
 
Not to get to drawn on the Sissoko stuff again too, but I do feel it's relevant. He is that same footballer today as he was when he first arrived (all be it with confidence). Technically he's still bad but he's performing well despite this, he's played around those problems, he's been coached so well by Poch a) to get him to function with his limitations b) to go beyond that and get MOTM performances out of him c) ultimately have him contribute positively to the overall performance of the team. We win because of his function/role in the team not lose because of him being unable to control a ball.

In-line with the article, the focus shouldn't be about him. I think his performances are now OTT (although the adoration will no doubt have a positive effect on the individuals' confidence which is no bad thing). We are a team greater than the sum of its parts but all of the parts need to function for a positive result.
If we are going to do this then ok, I too think he’s very relèvent a) in context to that article, because he’s become even more our VVD than VVD is to Liverpool fans and the media. A player so over hyped now in some warped over compensatory way, seems for some he’s MOTM every time he plays now, POTY despite there being several players who our season is far more dependent on etc etc.

And I think he’s relevent because he symbolises why we have regressed. If we - and Poch - are placing value on athleticism over technical ability and footballing intelligence then we are not going to evolve, we will regress.

We’ve got kids that will run around all day, run through walls, and have better technical and tactical qualities and won’t cost us 50m in fees and wages.

This is the reverse argument withTrippier for example, I think he’s quite a bright and technically competent player, but his physical limitations are an issue.

I happy to accept if we can upgrade Trippier, And I’d happily have seen Aurier or especially KWP given the back half of this season as first choice to see if they can. But failing that I know there’s only a handful of realistic potential upgrades available to us at RB, but I could go through almost every team in this league, all the way to Fulham and find CM’s who would be improvements on Sissoko for us.
 
Not to get to drawn on the Sissoko stuff again too, but I do feel it's relevant. He is that same footballer today as he was when he first arrived (all be it with confidence). Technically he's still bad but he's performing well despite this, he's played around those problems, he's been coached so well by Poch a) to get him to function with his limitations b) to go beyond that and get MOTM performances out of him c) ultimately have him contribute positively to the overall performance of the team. We win because of his function/role in the team not lose because of him being unable to control a ball.

In-line with the article, the focus shouldn't be about him. I think his performances are now OTT (although the adoration will no doubt have a positive effect on the individuals' confidence which is no bad thing). We are a team greater than the sum of its parts but all of the parts need to function for a positive result.
Not to get into a Sissoko debate but whilst I absolutely agree that
' Technically he's still bad but he's performing well despite this, he's played around those problems, he's been coached so well by Poch a) to get him to function with his limitations b) to go beyond that and get MOTM performances out of him c) ultimately have him contribute positively to the overall performance of the team.'

You've described why Sissoko has been transformed from the player he was in the first few games at Spurs and why he is able to play a decent role for Spurs now, even (arguably) taking on some of the attributes that Dembele had.

And to tbh this is a classic result of good management, to coach a player to play well within a system and team (harking back to the original article) by bringing his best attributes out and minimising as far as possible any poor attributes.

Something Poch has done with quite a few players - although I have to say his work with Sissoko verges on transforming a seemingly impossible task into a viable solution - fine tuning some of them from good or very good players to verging in the world class.
 
Not to get into a Sissoko debate but whilst I absolutely agree that
' Technically he's still bad but he's performing well despite this, he's played around those problems, he's been coached so well by Poch a) to get him to function with his limitations b) to go beyond that and get MOTM performances out of him c) ultimately have him contribute positively to the overall performance of the team.'

You've described why Sissoko has been transformed from the player he was in the first few games at Spurs and why he is able to play a decent role for Spurs now, even (arguably) taking on some of the attributes that Dembele had.

And to tbh this is a classic result of good management, to coach a player to play well within a system and team (harking back to the original article) by bringing his best attributes out and minimising as far as possible any poor attributes.

Something Poch has done with quite a few players - although I have to say his work with Sissoko verges on transforming a seemingly impossible task into a viable solution - fine tuning some of them from good or very good players to verging in the world class.
Agree and disagree in equal measure. First I completely agree and support the notion of coaching him brilliantly for him to perform positively for the team. But where I disagree is still collectively this season we've not been great most of the season. I don't think I'm talking out of turn when I say that we've huffed and puffed a lot this season, we've deserved out points, our results haven't been lucky but we haven't flowed, haven't had the same swagger and dominance this year and the oppo have had an increased number of opportunities on our goal as in previous years.

Poch has coached him well, but Sissoko wasn't this shit fuck of a player when he first started playing for us, he wasn't anywhere near as bad as people were saying, he wasn't great but he wasn't a calamity, just boring and functional. What he is today is better but I think that is largely down to him feeling more confident, with the backing of the crowd he knows he can take the ball out of midfield and not get screamed at if it doesn't come off, he did this when he first joined (against City in his first season and he set up a wonderful counter-attack for Rose(?) against Burnley where he took the ball from inside our penalty area and laid it off to Rose 25yrd from the oppo box for him to score), but he was lambasted by the fans when these runs resulted in nothing because his shot was mishit or pass not finding it's intended target. Now when he does the same thing, like against Liverpool he's applauded for doing it...but the end result was the same a ballooned shot when 1vs1.

He's the same palyer with the same technical limitations, just playing with a lot more confidence from now understanding his function/role, he's not having to think what foot goes in front of the other. An analogy would be what happens when you are learning to drive, the learner has to think every manoeuvre, has to think every gear change, he was like like this in his first couple of seasons, this year it's like he doesn't have to think how to change gear or mirror signal manoeuvre, he just does it. But he still can't control the ball well etc but he's accepted that he doesn't have to perform in this team.

Now, this isn't solely down to Sissoko that we aren't as free-flowing but it is ONE of the reasons because he's a lesser player than Dembele playing in the same position and it's not to single out Sissoko here, we've also been without Dier and Wanyama (two players that were part of a far more dominant and free-flowing Tottenham than we have now). This also can be said about Tripps playing instead of Walker + Not having Rose (out for what was almost 2 seasons) fully fit until now. There are other things to factor on this too, such as Wembley and the World Cup and Injuries. But remove the presence of a technical player and replace with a less technical player then you are not going to get the same performance, you might, however, get the same 3 points??

Sissoko has done enough for me to warrant his place in this team, I don't want him sold but we must find a better player than him for that position in midfield if we are to improve. With a 50 game season, I'll welcome seeing Sissoko play the early rounds of FA Cup's and League Cup's and lower PL opposition (and yes I know he's put in very good performances against top teams) but we can and have played much better when we've had better players in his position. But what a very good squad player to bring in and have, he can still rack up +20 performances per season.
 
I don't think he was unfairly scapegoated, I think he was individually bad and was/is a very poor technical fit for a collective ethos that requires control of the ball and tactical intelligence without it (no coincidence we are getting worse as a team IMO) but I really want to get into a Sissoko debate, or any individual one, I think we both agree completely with the fundamentals of that excellent piece. Football has changed, coaching has advanced enormously, thanks to people like Guardiola, Klopp and Pochettino (and many other good coaches out there now) and the "proper football geezer mentality" of Redknapp's and Sherwood's (and Roy Keane's) is thankfully becoming defunct.
coaching has advanced enormously, righto
training, diet, pitches, medical support and fitness have all changed dramatically

coaching has become too complicated and swings from defensive to attacking in fads like it has always done

and people like you desperately try to make it look like a science in the vain hope that you might confuse idiots into believing that you actually know something that they don't.

coaching is just the distilled version of what a football manager used to do - where all of the other extraneous duties (club management, booking coaches, making sure the pitch was mown) have been handed off to admin functionaries
Transfers are done by someone else, and even the actual coaching is diversified out to other specialists.

What sets the best managers apart from the rest is the same as its always been - man management, motivation and the ability to make teams work as teams, to become greater than the sum of their parts.

The tactical part of it is more often than not pseudo science bullshit that mugs like you swallow whole.

The game is played by humans, and they do not, and cannot stick to regimented patterns of behaviour because of the myriad of permutations that occur throughout a game.
Talent, motivation, fitness/physical conditioning and repetitive skills training are what make teams win.
 
That midfield is all muscle no craft. You can't play Dier as a 8 either, it's horrible, like watching a Rhino on skag trying tap dance.
I agree but who else have we got fit?
Dele can’t play CM and Eriksen cant either.

Other options are to play Llorente up top and drop a CM, or put Sánchez in and play a back 5.

Love the Dier comment, I used to rate him, but as we have improved as a team he hasn’t kept up.
 
I agree but who else have we got fit?
Dele can’t play CM and Eriksen cant either.

Other options are to play Llorente up top and drop a CM, or put Sánchez in and play a back 5.

Love the Dier comment, I used to rate him, but as we have improved as a team he hasn’t kept up.
Eriksen can in a CM3 with Wanyama next to him and someone else the other side.
 

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Mick Cooper, agree with a lot of what you say, Man Management is very important in a manager, but so are tactic's and the ability to change/tinker with a team, getting your best players to think the others in the team are their equals, the team is the most important not the player, (Man City will pass to the player in the best position to score not the best striker)
 
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