Going on From Our failed Domestic Cup Run Thread.....

[Fattynomates]

The other thread got me thinking, Maybe if the winners of the Domestic Cups actually got a Place in the Champions League then we would take it more seriously, our Owners may see Top 4 as a Success as it brings the CL money, However as Fans we are starved of Glory on the pitch and it boils down to Money, The Money that Champions League Qualification brings dwarfs that of winning an Actual Cup!

I Say we Make the Champions league for Champions again! Currently we have 4 places and 2 Cups, so what do you think , should the Winner of the FA \ Carabaro cup get a CL place?
And to make things Interesting why not have 2nd - 5th play in a Play off for the last Spot?

 

[Tomo]

CL spots

prem winner - Automatic Spot
2-3 - play off for spot
Carling Cup - Automatic Spot (runner up gets if winner already in)
FA Cup - Automatic spot (runner up gets if winner already in)

Europa League (Bin the conference league shit)

4-8th

Would make the cup competitions far more exciting.

 

[Airfixx]

The other thread got me thinking, Maybe if the winners of the Domestic Cups actually got a Place in the Champions League then we would take it more seriously, our Owners may see Top 4 as a Success as it brings the CL money, However as Fans we are starved of Glory on the pitch and it boils down to Money, The Money that Champions League Qualification brings dwarfs that of winning an Actual Cup!

I Say we Make the Champions league for Champions again! Currently we have 4 places and 2 Cups, so what do you think , should the Winner of the FA \ Carabaro cup get a CL place?
And to make things Interesting why not have 2nd - 5th play in a Play off for the last Spot?

1. The EPL would never agree to it.
2. There's a fair argument that a standing over 38 games out-ranks a successful 6/7 game cup run in terms of assessing a teams true level.
3. 2nd - 5th place play off? Yuk.... The champo one is bad enough in terms of 'entertainment' > sporting merit and leads to some awful teams stinking up the league for an entire season.

If individual clubs don't take the cups seriously then that's their own silly look out. However, I still think player mentality is just as much the issue for us as any messaging coming from the manager/board.

 

[Fattynomates]

1. The EPL would never agree to it.
2. There's a fair argument that a standing over 38 games out-ranks a successful 6/7 game cup run in terms of assessing a teams true level.
3. 2nd - 5th place play off? Yuk.... The champo one is bad enough in terms of 'entertainment' > sporting merit and leads to some awful teams stinking up the league for an entire season.

If individual clubs don't take the cups seriously then that's their own silly look out. However, I still think player mentality is just as much the issue for us as any messaging coming from the manager/board.

Why do they Call it the "Champions League" then?

 

[Matt1882]

At best the FA Cup winner should. Not the league cup.
The implication is that you end up with a Portsmouth or Wigan in the Champions league and they get spanked 6 times in the group stages, lowering Englands coefficient and we end up losing places as a result.

Also, all leagues would have to do the same and most leagues only have 1 domestic cup.

I actually think there's an easier way of getting domestic cups to matter more, and that's bridging the vast gap between the Champions League and the ropey league financially.
As it stands, there's nowhere near enough money in the ropey league for teams to sacrifice a top 4 push. There's also too many games in the ropey league and the CL teams getting knocked down, IMO, devalues it.
Have a preliminary round(s) for the ropey league to knock all the worst of the worst teams out early. The ones that go through deserve their place. Then have like for like group and knock out stage as the CL. Of course the TV greed is what kills it. Tuesday and Wednesday to get ALL of the CL games on TV but all the ropey league games compressed into Thursday.

If being in the ropey league wasn't so shit, then maybe teams could afford not to put all their eggs in the top 4 basket.

 

[Matt1882]

Why do they Call it the "Champions League" then?

Why is the first division called The EFL Championship?

 

[Airfixx]

Why do they Call it the "Champions League" then?

Fair (yet different) question; but domestic cup (nor Europa League) winners aren't considered "champions" either.

 

[Fattynomates]

The implication is that you end up with a Portsmouth or Wigan in the Champions league and they get spanked 6 times in the group stages, lowering Englands coefficient and we end up losing places as a result.

You really think that would happen when all of the PL clubs would be taking it seriously?

 

[Airfixx]

CL spots

prem winner - Automatic Spot
2-3 - play off for spot
Carling Cup - Automatic Spot (runner up gets if winner already in)
FA Cup - Automatic spot (runner up gets if winner already in)

Europa League (Bin the conference league shit)

4-8th

Would make the cup competitions far more exciting.

Not without expense.........

The league is bread and butter. Every team should strive to finish as high as possible. With the above there's little motivation to........ And the more emphasis you take off of individual league fixtures (by prioritising other competitions), the less the league standings will mean come the end of the season; it's a vicious circle.

 

[Tomo]

Not without expense.........

The league is bread and butter. Every team should strive to finish as high as possible. With the above there's little motivation to........ And the more emphasis you take off of individual league fixtures (by prioritising other competitions), the less the league standings will mean come the end of the season; it's a vicious circle.

If the top 6-7 are still going into Europe then you will still have that. The issue is the league has been priotised so much totally at the expense of the cups.

My dad used to tell me winning the FA Cup used to be like winning the league, it was that big a deal. Now the FA Cup and Carling Cup are totally devalued. Clubs only care about money so throw everything at the league including and in particular us under ENIC.

I would love to have more balance, I don’t see the balance as correct IMO.

 

[BernardMatthews]

Since 2014 the league cup has been won by city (6times), Chelsea, United and Liverpool.

That’s it.

Not sure offering a CL place changes much at all.

Aside from the fact you could potentially qualify for the champions league playing only teams in a lower division than yourself which would be laughable. For that reason alone it’s never going to happen.

 

[Matt1882]

You really think that would happen when all of the PL clubs would be taking it seriously?

FA Cup winners since Enic in 200
Liverpool
Arse
Arse
United
Arse
Liverpool
Chelsea
Pompy
Chelsea
Chelsea
City
Chelsea
Wigan
Arse
Arse
United
Arse
Chelsea
City
Arse
Leicester
Liverpool

I'd say the top teams have been taking it seriously. The only one of those 3 outliers that wasn't against a PL team was Pompy too.

 

[Furball man]

Yes but it won’t happen as teams who get top 4 are generally more attractive to UEFA money-wise

 

[tommyboyspurs]

fa cup yes

league cup winners should get europa spot

more teams will care then

 

[For better or worse]

I think the importance of winning a domestic cup is overlooked by clubs, and more fool them.

The impact would trickle through the team and would rip through the fanbase. Look at Man U, sure it's a shit cup, but the players and fans must be buzzing and I bet there's additional belief that they can achieve anything, and that ETH is the real deal.

Going out in a micky mouse cup actually does more harm than good IMHO

 

[Airfixx]

If the top 6-7 are still going into Europe then you will still have that.

They wouldn't be though......... You're talking about

4 x CL spots potentially filled by:

EPL winner
3rd
2 x bottom half cup winners.

+ 7th & 8th > Europa.

That's a mess in all honesty.

Then you have the added aspect that Europa League is also treated like a step child...... In fact this is the pefect case-study considering the thread premise.... You now get CL for winning it and UK fans still see it is a pain in the arse.

The issue is the league has been priotised so much totally at the expense of the cups.

My dad used to tell me winning the FA Cup used to be like winning the league, it was that big a deal. Now the FA Cup and Carling Cup are totally devalued. Clubs only care about money so throw everything at the league including and in particular us under ENIC.

I would love to have more balance, I don’t see the balance as correct IMO.

I'm old enough to remember the domestic cups meaning more.... However:

I come back to an earlier point I made though......... Pragmatically; what is more meaningful though? .....A 38 game comp where everyone plays each other home and away or a 6 game cup run that may comprise multiple lower league teams?

We're been hearing "re-boost the cups" chat for nigh on 2 decades now........ I just think the game has evolved past the point of no return now. At the highest level, it's a pan European concern now with different 'wealth' streams. To go back to the old days would mean less money and going back to the way the European cups used to be structured. (....FA Cup win still never used to get you into the big comp back then btw).

'Cups = CL qualification' is an overly simplistic fix to a far deeper and wider scenario.

 

[Airfixx]

I think the importance of winning a domestic cup is overlooked by clubs, and more fool them.

The impact would trickle through the team and would rip through the fanbase. Look at Man U, sure it's a shit cup, but the players and fans must be buzzing and I bet there's additional belief that they can achieve anything, and that ETH is the real deal.

Going out in a micky mouse cup actually does more harm than good IMHO

Well obviously........ But everyone (bar 1) goes out in the end.

 

[1882]

Why do they Call it the "Champions League" then?

They never should have!
The Champions League is basically what the UEFA Cup shoulda been... (yeah, I said UEFA Cup, bitches!)

Champions League/European Cup for CHAMPIONS... 2nd-6th form the UEFA/Europa League....

but yes, if they offered CL Football to the FA Cup Winners, and Europa Legaue/UEFA Cup place to League Cup winners... then we're talking!

 

[SpiderSpurs]

The other thread got me thinking, Maybe if the winners of the Domestic Cups actually got a Place in the Champions League then we would take it more seriously, our Owners may see Top 4 as a Success as it brings the CL money, However as Fans we are starved of Glory on the pitch and it boils down to Money, The Money that Champions League Qualification brings dwarfs that of winning an Actual Cup!

I Say we Make the Champions league for Champions again! Currently we have 4 places and 2 Cups, so what do you think , should the Winner of the FA \ Carabaro cup get a CL place?
And to make things Interesting why not have 2nd - 5th play in a Play off for the last Spot?

David Mellor was advocating a CL place for the FA Cup winners years ago.

FA Cup is losing out to charity

Arsene Wenger got his retaliation in first. In case Spurs won, he put the boot into the Worthless Cup last Saturday. A trophy the big teams don't care about, he sniffed. What's the achievement in winning a competition against other people's reserves? It's much more difficult to finish sixth in...

www.standard.co.uk

I agreed with him then and agree with him now.

 

[Matt1882]

They never should have!
The Champions League is basically what the UEFA Cup shoulda been... (yeah, I said UEFA Cup, bitches!)

Champions League/European Cup for CHAMPIONS... 2nd-6th form the UEFA/Europa League....

but yes, if they offered CL Football to the FA Cup Winners, and Europa Legaue/UEFA Cup place to League Cup winners... then we're talking!

If there was a tournament just for champions of each division, it would be fucking boring, fucking short, and over by fucking November.

Who gives a shit what it's called? It's the top clubs from each country competing against each other.

Imagine, City, Real, PSG, Milan, Porto, Bayern, Celtic, Salzburg, Ajax, Shaktar, Brugge, Pletzen, Zagreb, Zurich, Olympiacos, Bodo, Malmo, Ludogrets, Cluj,
I'm bored looking at all the thrashing boys that would be in it to replace all the teams that didn't win their league.
Imagine it, 30 odd teams including some of that shite. Fucking Tiraspol and Pyunik.
Shamrock Rovers.

The only good thing about it would be there would be fuck all money because no one is paying to watch that shit.