Glory vs. winning

[Erik_Edman]

“The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It’s nothing of the kind. The game is about glory. It is about doing things in style, with a flourish, about going out and beating the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom.”

In all of the time I've been a Spurs fan, the above quote has encapsulated everything I've understood about supporting Spurs. It dictates that what makes our club different from others is a sense of adventure, daring, the swashbuckling approach to dispatching opponents. The daring mentality, the act of taking risks for the reward of entertainment and glory, was what supporting this club was meant to be about, and it's fundamental importance to the identity of Spurs is reflected in the fact that said quote hangs on a banner at the Lane.

For all the time I've been a Spurs fan, other supporters of the club have clung to this single quotation aggressively as a marker of club identity. This is why it intrigues me that so many people are now starting to posit the view that 'ugly wins are still wins, three points are still three points' now that we've started to win games without threatening consistently over 90 minutes or creating many chances. The "you can't argue with our best start to the season so sit down and shut up" view, in so many obvious respects, runs totally contrary to the pride that we placed in doing things the way Danny Blanchflower argued we should do them.

So I suppose my question with this- are we prepared to allow the 'doings things with a flourish' outlook to slip into irrelevance now that we have a genuine shot at top honours? Or perhaps more pertinently, was it even that important to us as a fanbase in the first place? Was Blanchflower wrong to suggest the game was fundamentally about anything other than winning, when it comes down to it?

Or am I just interpreting everything wrong, and is there really some form of glory in what AVB's doing that I can't perceive, and there is in fact no cognitive dissonance in holding up Blanchflower's view of what the game is about and backing AVB?

This isn't meant to be a leading question, I'm genuinely interested to hear people's views on this.

 

[truetomyself]

Somehow, I knew this was coming.

 

[Erik_Edman]

Somehow, I knew this was coming.

Well, it's sort of an unavoidable conversation, isn't it? As I said, it seems a little like cognitive dissonance just to ignore the contradiction.

Unless, as I said, there is no contradiction and I'm just analyzing everything wrong.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

about going out and beating the other lot

I think there is a common misconception that Nicholson's claim was that glory was preferred to just winning. Actually what he talks about is simply winning in style. Therefore it is not about one or the other. Remember this is our only double winning manager.

Personally I would like to win in style. But, I'd rather us win a few games in a boring manner and then have the odd glory game, than just the odd glory game and put up with mid table mediocrity, which was our record for the best part of 20 years from the beginning of the 90s pretty much until Jo & Redknapp started to get us higher in the table. This idea that the Spurs of old, a grand, successful swashbuckling side, has largely been a fiction in our recent history. A fiction still rooted in the sides of the 60s and 70s.

We are in a modern era now where we have to win and build success to keep ourselves within reach. If that means we have some boring games along the way then so be it. I rather we do that, solidfy our position and then sign the players who can afford us those glory days and nights, rather than being mediocre and forever being nearly men.

As ever, people have short memories. A few years ago all the moaning was about us not winning enough games and the club not bringing in good enough managers and players. Now that things are better, again they aren't even close to being satisfied. We have to be top of the table and playing in glorious style in "the Tottenham way". Impatience rearing it's ugly head again. People want to have their cake and eat it. We simply aren't there yet.

 

[HeroesAndVillains]

We have been playing very boring football for a while. That's all I can say.

 

[Gothamizm]

I definitely sympathise with your leanings - I'd much rather be doing things the right way than winning playing boring football.

However, I am of the belief that AVB has made the defence as airtight as he has and is building from the back. We're waiting for the arrival of the new look Spurs - tight at the back, fluent in the midfield and lethal in attack.

But it's still in the post.

I think that, if we play the kind of football we have over the last few weeks over Christmas and New Years', that will cause a real outrage.

I guess what I'm saying is that the manager and the club are building towards a team that wins the right way - but for now we may have to settle for just winning.

 

[Erik_Edman]

I think there is a common misconception that Nicholson's claim was that glory was preferred to just winning. Actually what he talks about is simply winning in style. Therefore it is not about one or the other. Remember this is our only double winning manager.

Personally I would like to win in style. But, I'd rather us win a few games in a boring manner and then have the odd glory game, than just the odd glory game and put up with mid table mediocrity, which was our record for the best part of 20 years from the beginning of the 90s pretty much until Jo & Redknapp started to get us higher in the table. This idea that the Spurs of old, a grand, successful swashbuckling side, has largely been a fiction in our recent history. A fiction still rooted in the sides of the 60s and 70s.

We are in a modern era now where we have to win and build success to keep ourselves within reach. If that means we have some boring games along the way then so be it. I rather we do that, solidfy our position and then sign the players who can afford us those glory days and nights, rather than being mediocre and forever being nearly men.

As ever, people have short memories. A few years ago all the moaning was about us not winning enough games and the club not bringing in good enough managers and players. Now that things are better, again they aren't even close to being satisfied. We have to be top of the table and playing in glorious style in "the Tottenham way". Impatience rearing it's ugly head again. People want to have their cake and eat it. We simply aren't there yet.

I don't necessarily want us to be topping the table and swaggering through every game we play simultaneously. What I'm concerned about is that AVB's 'squashed' style of play pretty much rules out free-flowing, chance-creating football almost entirely. I feel like I can count on one hand games where we really came out and stamped a mark on our opponents, rather than simply bossing the pitch without threatening them, since he started, and what's more I don't even feel that's a sustainable approach to winning matches over the course of a season.

What I want to see, as I've said elsewhere, is a greater mixing of his tactical approaches. Coming out guns-blazing, using width, space and the harnessing of creative talented when it's appropriate, and then tightening up and playing cagey when the time for that comes too. Grinding through every game doesn't feel necessary at the moment, let alone enjoyable.

 

[grandmachine12]

Would I take a slightly less gung-ho brand of football in order to win things? Yeah I would.

"The game is about glory"

Lets be honest, there aren't actually that many times you can claim a loss as glorious. Bar a few exceptions.

I'm not talking Pulis' Stoke boring, fuck that, but if we have to sit through a few performances like yesterdays per season, so be it.
I don't recall anyone having a problem when we went backs to the wall against AC in order to reach the CL quarter finals.

I think some are greatly exaggerating how bad our style of play his been this season, and under AVB as a whole. Whilst we've played some boring football at times, we've also played some pretty-to-watch stuff too.

 

[Thelonious]

Mate of mine made an interesting point yesterday, said we should have Redknapp coaching the attacking players with AVB coaching the defensive players. Obviously this isn't possible but it'd be interesting to see.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

We have been playing very boring football for a while. That's all I can say.

For what? 9 matches? That's a crisis isn't it...

What people are missing, I think, is the talisman player. With the likes of Modric, VDV, Bale, Berbatov and so on no longer at the club, there are no moment of individual gory and wonder to be enjoyed. I think that is why this notion of boring football is coming up now. But we have a lot of new players bedding in that weren't in the side last year. Bale and Modric were non-entities in their early days. Who knows? Toward the end of the season some of our new boys may come good and we'll be playing that glory game again and have our talismen again.

People want everything yesterday. That's the problem here. Instant gratification. Exceptional players like Bale become the norm. Famous games like our CL matches against Milan are what are expected. So when we need to have that time to adjust to new players and a new manager people are straight away moaning because the style isn't the exactly same, but also better. Christ, you look at fans of the likes of Villa, Spam, Newcastle and so on, and you have to ask, considering where we are, are we really in a position to be moaning about the fact that our precious glory game has yet to return in full this season?

 

[1882]

We played some ridiculously CRAZY football at times under Ossie... (Famous 5 anyone?) and yet, as 'fun-filled' and incident packed as those fleeting moments were, nobody could honestly say they ENJOYED seeing us occupy mid-table on a regular basis...
The fact 1977/78 has come up a few times is interesting... as although we were in the (old) 2nd Division, and therefore how could you compare it with now, we were doing rather well in it, and eventually came straight back up... so you can classify that season as a relative success!
Surely that WOULD be enjoyable for all but the hardest-to-please Spurs fan!?

 

[Hazza]

The problem is in the assumption that AVB is intentionally making us play ugly football for the sake of winning. There is no evidence for this. Ideally we would be winning and playing beautiful football, but it doesn't always work like that.

Firstly, to repeat the obvious, AVB is still young and relatively new to management, which we should always keep in mind when talking about him, because he, just like many of our young players, is not the finished article yet. Secondly, there hasn't been much stability at this club for some time, we've had huge upheaval for the past two seasons, with managerial and other staff changes, loads of players leaving (including some of our best players) and loads coming in. The squad has been completely transformed. And you can't instil an identity or style or cohesion into a team in such short time and with so many new players. Especially players coming from all over the world.

It seems to me that all these discussion are based around the assumption that we are now playing as is intended and nothing is going to change, unless drastic actions are taken. Which is nonsense as far as I'm concerned. Everything is still very much fluid, and we are nowhere near our best yet. It just requires patience and understanding, not short-sightedness or knee-jerk reactions, and that's from everyone involved. And the fact that we are getting good results, regardless of the quality of the performances, should certainly make it a lot easier to show belief in the manager and the team as they work through these issues.

Criticism is fine, as long as it's focused and at least somewhat constructive.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

I don't necessarily want us to be topping the table and swaggering through every game we play simultaneously. What I'm concerned about is that AVB's 'squashed' style of play pretty much rules out free-flowing, chance-creating football almost entirely. I feel like I can count on one hand games where we really came out and stamped a mark on our opponents, rather than simply bossing the pitch without threatening them, since he started, and what's more I don't even feel that's a sustainable approach to winning matches over the course of a season.

We are three points off the top spot. So, thus far, the notion that it is not sustainable isn't being proved true since we have only lost one more game than the league leaders.

Whether people like it or not, AVB's brief from Levy isn't to play the glory game. It's to get the side into the CL and win trophies, both for one reason only, to make bucks and to eventually provide and more sustainable position at the top of the league season after season. I think fans need to accept that for those running the club the glory game comes in second. So, the options are either accept this and be patient, or go and support someone else. *shrug*

 

[Erik_Edman]

Would I take a slightly less gung-ho brand of football in order to win things? Yeah I would.

"The game is about glory"

Lets be honest, there aren't actually that many times you can claim a loss as glorious. Bar a few exceptions.

I'm not talking Pulis' Stoke boring, fuck that, but if we have to sit through a few performances like yesterdays per season, so be it.
I don't recall anyone having a problem when we went backs to the wall against AC in order to reach the CL quarter finals.

I think some are greatly exaggerating how bad our style of play his been this season, and under AVB as a whole. Whilst we've played some boring football at times, we've also played some pretty-to-watch stuff too.

I think the difference was that everyone knew Redknapp wasn't afraid to let the team swagger when we could afford to- let us run riot in a 9-1 over Wigan or a 5-0 over Newcastle. Then, when we were facing a team with superior creative talent, he would take the cue to tighten it up and grind out a win. He didn't always get it right, and that's why he got the sack, but that's not to say there wasn't something in there worth preserving.

The problem is that AVB plays very illiberal football almost as a rule, regardless of whether or not in fact it's appropriate to do so. Hull weren't coming out to attack us and we actually made things harder on ourselves by further squashing up the field of play when they had already parked the bus.

 

[grandmachine12]

The problem is in the assumption that AVB is intentionally making us play ugly football for the sake of winning. There is no evidence for this. Ideally we would be winning and playing beautiful football, but it doesn't always work like that.

Firstly, to repeat the obvious, AVB is still young and relatively new to management, which we should always keep in mind when talking about him, because he, just like many of our young players, is not the finished article yet. Secondly, there hasn't been much stability at this club for some time, we've had huge upheaval for the past two seasons, with managerial and other staff changes, loads of players leaving (including some of our best players) and loads coming in. The squad has been completely transformed. And you can't instil an identity or style or cohesion into a team in such short time and with so many new players. Especially players coming from all over the world.

It seems to me that all these discussion are based around the assumption that we are now playing as is intended and nothing is going to change, unless drastic actions are taken. Which is nonsense as far as I'm concerned. Everything is still very much fluid, and we are nowhere near our best yet. It just requires patience and understanding, not short-sightedness or knee-jerk reactions, and that's from everyone involved. And the fact that we are getting good results, regardless of the quality of the performances, should certainly make it a lot easier to show belief in the manager and the team as they work through these issues.

Criticism is fine, as long as it's focused and at least somewhat constructive.

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant post.

 

[LegenDerrySpur]

The team can only play the way the opposition lets them IMO, if they sit back and allow us to have the ball then would you rather our players do a couple of step overs and few keepy uppys before passing while the other team sit and wait on the edge of their own box.
When teams have a go at us it opens space and then you see the difference and more flair play,other than that we have to be patient and wait for the opportunity to play that key pass otherwise we will just give them the ball by not being smart with it. If we have the ball they can hurt us SIMPLES

 

[HeroesAndVillains]

For what? 9 matches? That's a crisis isn't it...

What people are missing, I think, is the talisman player. With the likes of Modric, VDV, Bale, Berbatov and so on no longer at the club, there are no moment of individual gory and wonder to be enjoyed. I think that is why this notion of boring football is coming up now. But we have a lot of new players bedding in that weren't in the side last year. Bale and Modric were non-entities in their early days. Who knows? Toward the end of the season some of our new boys may come good and we'll be playing that glory game again and have our talismen again.

People want everything yesterday. That's the problem here. Instant gratification. Exceptional players like Bale become the norm. Famous games like our CL matches against Milan are what are expected. So when we need to have that time to adjust to new players and a new manager people are straight away moaning because the style isn't the exactly same, but also better. Christ, you look at fans of the likes of Villa, Spam, Newcastle and so on, and you have to ask, considering where we are, are we really in a position to be moaning about the fact that our precious glory game has yet to return in full this season?

We played quite boring football for the most part of last season aswell.

I don't want us to sack AvB. I hope that we will get going and start to play more fluidly. But to say we play something else than boring football and to say I'm not worried would be to lie.

 

[TED]

We have been playing very boring football for a while. That's all I can say.

its the fucking worst football we have played for years

 

[grandmachine12]

I think the difference was that everyone knew Redknapp wasn't afraid to let the team swagger when we could afford to- let us run riot in a 9-1 over Wigan or a 5-0 over Newcastle. Then, when we were facing a team with superior creative talent, he would take the cue to tighten it up and grind out a win. He didn't always get it right, and that's why he got the sack, but that's not to say there wasn't something in there worth preserving.

The problem is that AVB plays very illiberal football almost as a rule, regardless of whether or not in fact it's appropriate to do so. Hull weren't coming out to attack us and we actually made things harder on ourselves by further squashing up the field of play when they had already parked the bus.

Most teams still came out and attacked us when HR was in charge though, When a team did si back we struggled just like we do now.

Hazza's post pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[Erik_Edman]

The problem is in the assumption that AVB is intentionally making us play ugly football for the sake of winning. There is no evidence for this. Ideally we would be winning and playing beautiful football, but it doesn't always work like that.

Firstly, to repeat the obvious, AVB is still young and relatively new to management, which we should always keep in mind when talking about him, because he, just like many of our young players, is not the finished article yet. Secondly, there hasn't been much stability at this club for some time, we've had huge upheaval for the past two seasons, with managerial and other staff changes, loads of players leaving (including some of our best players) and loads coming in. The squad has been completely transformed. And you can't instil an identity or style or cohesion into a team in such short time and with so many new players. Especially players coming from all over the world.

It seems to me that all these discussion are based around the assumption that we are now playing as is intended and nothing is going to change, unless drastic actions are taken. Which is nonsense as far as I'm concerned. Everything is still very much fluid, and we are nowhere near our best yet. It just requires patience and understanding, not short-sightedness or knee-jerk reactions, and that's from everyone involved. And the fact that we are getting good results, regardless of the quality of the performances, should certainly make it a lot easier to show belief in the manager and the team as they work through these issues.

Criticism is fine, as long as it's focused and at least somewhat constructive.

I might be wrong, but my issue is that we are, I think, playing as AVB intends. We're utilising a high line, forcing turnovers in the opposition half, dominating possession, making the pitch compact so we can fence them in. His game plan, in essence, is being enacted week after week, and the problem is that other teams have figured out how to counteract it. It's not that his plan isn't being realised on the pitch, it's that it's being nullified on a weekly basis.