Audere est Facere- from a Latin student.

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tmacspurs

tmacspurs

I hate to discredit Zoc and his "improved" translation of our club motto, but as a Latin student of 6 years, I had to make this right after hearing about it briefly on the podcast.

Zoc's translation of "Daring is Achieving" is grammatically incorrect. This translation would require the adjectives "audax, audacis" and some from of the Latin verb "perficio" meaning to achieve.
"To Dare" is an infinitive in Latin, formed from the 2nd principle part of the verb "audeo", meaning dare. Also on that note, "facere" is the infinitive of "facio", meaning to make or do. "est" is simply a form of the verb "to be", so therefore To Dare is to Do is the most accurate Latin translation.

I feel like a latin nerd now, but whatever. Reply with any questions or concerns you have with this useless language that I've spent 6 years of my life studying.
 
coalhada said:
In general, the Romans and mediaeval writers didn't use punctuation at all, or spaces between words, which makes reading many of the texts from the era an absolute pain, above and beyond it being in Latin already.
I mean, look at this, it's ridiculous:.
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461px-Vergilius_Augusteus%2C_Georgica_141.jpg


That's nothing more than MEDIEVAL UPPER CASE RANT!!
WE LOST V-I ...BLOODY V-I TO THOSE CUNTUM!
IF THEY AUDERE PUT IN ANOTHER SHITE PERFORMANCE LIKE THAT THIS SEASON, I'M THROWING THEM TO THE LIONS!
AVBXMII OUT!
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coalhada said:
In general, the Romans and mediaeval writers didn't use punctuation at all, or spaces between words, which makes reading many of the texts from the era an absolute pain, above and beyond it being in Latin already.
I mean, look at this, it's ridiculous:
461px-Vergilius_Augusteus%2C_Georgica_141.jpg


They did sometimes use an interpunct (·) to separate·words·like·this, but this pretty much died out by later periods.


In the modern era, you tend to write Latin using the punctuation system of your own language, all in lower case except for proper nouns, e.g. servus Bregans ab horto tractus est.
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Thats like old school DavSpurs level ranting.
 
When I was about 12 (when Latin was commonly spoken*), I asked my teacher, who was a nun, what it meant, and she told me it literally meant 'to dare is to do', ie nothing ventured, nothing gained. So that's that - if Sister Mary Agnelus says that's what it means, that's what it means!
*thought I'd put that in to save you witty chaps the trouble
 
I agree and I raised this at the time but I think ZoC's point was more that the accurate literal translation in English doesn't say what the Latin meant. As in, we don't normally talk using infinitives in English nowadays and "do" has a range of potential meanings.

I have no problem with audere est facare or to dare is to do. My personal favourite is daring to achieve.
 
I always took "to dare is to do" to mean that to play the Spurs way of bold and audacious football requires us to take risks. By "daring", we are "doing" the way of football that is inherent in our club. By being daring we are forced into playing the flowing style that we know and love. But Zoc's suggestion makes more sense if you translate it liberally. Whatever. It's just been bugging me for a while.
 
am I the only person who thinks 'To Dare is to do' makes perfect sense as a sentence/phrase. The actual phrasing has nothing to do with Tottenham Hotspur, we just adopted it.

Or have I missed the whole entire point of this argument?
 
tmacspurs said:
The pronunciation is all wrong, too. It's pronounced "Ow-dare-ay est fa-ker-ay". Propa translation, you feel me :nawty: :mong:
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That's how I pronounce it. But ZoC is also correct. Latin was around for centuries as a living language.

And speaking as a Latin student of 20 years, I can assure you that there is nothing wrong with ZoC's translation in respect to his verb forms. He uses a verb as a noun (a gerund) whereas the Latin effectively does the same with an infinitive - compare "I like to read" with "I like reading". Not adjectives, I should point out (although 'daring' is an adjective in other contexts, just not here).

'To dare is to do' is the word for word translation, but there are many reasons we don't do word for word translations all the time.

The main one is that the object of translation is to convey the meaning accurately. "To dare is to do" doesn't do this, because you then have to supply contextual information to make the original intent clear.
The ultimate aim of translating 'audere est facere' would be to provide a single English phrase that lets the reader get the same concept in just a few words.

For what it's worth, I don't think ZoC's version does this either.
My solution? Don't translate it.
 
When I lived and studied in France, I had to learn Latin at uni as part of my degree.

I had learned it as a kid in England, but the French pronounced it very differently. Like us, they pronounce it like they see it (i.e. in a French accent). The Italians pronounce it in an Italian accent.

The truth is, nobody is sure how the Romans pronounced Latin, as they weren't yet advanced enough to have invented electronic recording. However, we do know from Latin poetry that they pronounced every letter and every syllable (hence 'audere' being pronounced 'or-dare-ay').

ZoC's pronunciation is distinctly Italian, which is incorrect in England, but correct in Italy.
 
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