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Says the disingenuous WUM who has had to literally lie about the Southampton saga and lie about what Pochettino said about Barcelona just so you could have an excuse to whinge and whine about how he didn't win the FA Cup so therefore he's crap.
Let me ask you this: would you rather be Woolwich, right now? They won a trophy last year, so they must be bigger and better than us, right? That's the way you measure success, right?
Harry Kane is a loser until he wins a tin pot, yes?
The absolute state of your 'support'.
Because Kane was 19, Eriksen was 21 and had just joined, Son wasn't here neither was Ali, Dier and Alderwield.
And we had Paulinho, Soldaldo, Bentaleb, Chadli, Dempsey, Sigguardson, Abebayor, Kaboul to name a few.
It is the same reason why Poch was worried about facing the sack just before the Villa game and we were pretty mediocre in first season.
In your world Pochettinho could join Newcastle tomorrow and after a short while they will be challenging at the top - it's pure delusion at play.
As for Guardiola - where did I say he didn't achieve anything at Barca? Strawman after strawman. The point was that relative to the resources he had which was the best team in the history of the game that should be the case. They should have won more, they basically won the 09 CL on the back of one of the worst/corrupt referring performances the game has seen and he couldn't even get past a 10 man far inferior Inter side the next year. To put his achievements into context a run of the mill manger in the form of Luis Enrique won 1 CL, 2 league titles and 3 Copa Del Reys with that side. Clearly that Barca team is not a great measure of a managers talent. What defines Pep is not that - it is succeeding is multiple countries. That's where is legacy lies.
And you hark back to CL qualification achievement - we had a team of that ability and yet that should be the benchmark of our success? Getting more top finishes with a far better side than Redknapp's is the goal. Embarrassing. It's rather telling that you say that you started following us in '87 another fantastic Spurs side that failed to win anything due to a manager not being of the same quality of the side. Clearly set the standard with you.
As for Jose winning the FA Cup - I would be ecstatic, it's 30 years since we last won one, 12 years since our last silverware. I really couldn't care less about the CL and it doesn't surprise me one bit you just parrot the usual nonsense about that competition. Thankfully the gullible fools who buy into this narrative who say 'the game has moved on' will all disappear once the qualification format is expanded and where the top 6 will be almost guaranteed a spot barring a disaster. We can then get back to focus of those outdated silly little cups and not have to endlessly put up with twerps going on the importance of long term financial ambitions. Jesus wept do know how clueless you actually sound on this?
But hey you keep on crapping on the trophies that have defined this club. You keep on talking down the club and the best group of players it's had in decades to talk a manger who got sacked the moment he no longer had that crutch. You have the gall to say I live in the past and then reference the Sugar years. Newsflash - everyone know we can't compete financially with the elite clubs which is why don't try. Our model is the A Madrid and Dortmund model but unlike those clubs we don't win anything because he have had the likes of Poch and Redknapp as our managers rather than the likes of Klopp and Simeone and fully backed by some supporters who will talk down their own club to build up those coaches. Well done you.
What would I prefer?
Finishing 8th and an FA Cup win or finishing 6th and no cups?
Oh let me se I wonder which one I would choose. Jesus wept.
Sorry what bearing does that have on this season exactly?
Yeah, and what a difference Poch made once he got top grips with the squad, imported new players, and then turned them into a side which has been competing in the Champions League for the previous 4 seasons. If you think Pochettino's coaching had nothing to do with the excellence of those players as they grew into the team, then feel free to remain clueless as to how football works.
You're making the exact arguments for that with regard to Poch. "Oh, he had players I like, therefore he didn't do anything!" It's just that when you actually wheel these arguments out of your dusty attic and into the light of day, they make no sense whatsoever.
None of those players who you listed were considered world or even top class. They were punts made by Tottenham Hotspur, hoping to find value in them, and banking on this excellent coach they'd just appointed who was renowned for turning youth into gold to take us to the next level.
And it worked.
No, Guardiola TURNED those players into the best team in history. He did that, with his coaching. If you had thrown LVG into that role Barcelona's rise to that pedestal would never have happened, and they would have simply remained one of the Spanish heavyweights who flattered to deceive on the stage of European football which was dominated by the Premier League at the time. Messi would have performed well, of course, and then gotten poached by one of our super-rich clubs who could offer him a platform to become the best in the world.
LOL listen to you, Armchair Manager. Go on, tell me exactly many more they should have won beyond the 6 trophies they won in Pep's first season, the 2 in his second, and the 6 in his 3rd. Regale me with your expertise.
You know why? because football doesn't work the way YOU think it does. Having a talenetd squad of players means nothing without a great coach to actually make them successful. That's why Poch took a bunch of players who we'd signed on the cheap because they were not on anyone big's radar, and turned them into our best side of the modern era, even taking us to a Champions League final.
If you think that's just down to the inherent quality of our squad, with no elevation form the coach, well, again, you just don't understand how football actually works.
Even if we dropped out of the Top 4, and lose half our squad because THEY care about the CL? Harry Kane is a special exception. Everyone else in that team is not.
Then you don't understand modern football, or even modern footballers. You just want football to go back to the way you remember it from when you were young, before TV rights changed the sport. Tough shit. It isn't going to happen, and if you don't have ambitions to remain in the premier footballing competition in the world just because you'd rather win the FA Cup, then you're lost in self-serving nostalgia.
I want to win the FA Cup too. Hell, I want to win the UEFA Cup again. But what I want more is to secure our place at the Big Boy table, so that we can actually compete properly for the trophies that REALLY matter. Not just a day out at Wembley, but trophies which raise our profile across the continent and make us attractive to the very best talent out there.
No, I'll just keep on reminding you that our club hasn't even been close to winning tose things again until Pochettino turned us into a fantastic footballing team. Oh, and by the way? Your arguments are no better than those who turn around and bemoan the style of Jose's play, saying that in fact it is our style of football and traditions which define our club.
Jose wants to win , so that tradition has gone out the window. If you want us to actually become the club we once were, your attachment to days out at Wembley is just as much on the chopping block.
No, YOU keep doing that. YOU keep talking as though winning an FA Cup should be the limits of our ambition, because it's what YOU want, because you're stuck on your own highlight reel from your youth.
Yeah, thanks to the coaching and transfer demands of the very man you think wasn't worth anything because he didn't give you a day out at Wembley.
The biggest delusion in this entire thread is you thinking that you want and understand what is best for THFC. You don't. You just want what's best for YOU.
A Madrid didn't win anything UNTIL they appointed Simeone. The difference is that when Simeone got a Champions League final and failed, the supporters didn't turn on him and call him crap because he also hadn't won them a Copa del Rey.
Well done YOU. Thanks for playing.
Calling someone a twat and a cunt doesn’t further your argument!
Yes Poch took us to a CL final by a miracle but then fucked it up by destabilising the team by threatening to resign just before the biggest game in our history
I will never forgive him for that!
Good riddance
It does when that's all they are being. He just keeps moving the goalposts, setting up strawmen, and running away from everything which proves him wrong, including with regard to Southampton, because he can't deal with the argument actually being made to him. Oh, and I called him a twat in response to him accusing me of being a "new fan" as his boilerplate dismissing tactic. He wasn't trying to argue anything, he was just being a twat.
Seriously, look at how many tangents he has taken us on, just because he wouldn't admit that he was wrong about Poch's 'word', and thinks he's nothing more than a mediocre chancer who got lucky to have world class talents to work with.
He's being a twat, so I will call him one.
That's a fair complaint, although I feel it's slightly exaggerated. It doesn't though invalidate Poch's quality as a coach, nor does his lack of winning the League Cup.
If that's how you feel then fine. But at least you're being honest about your reasons, and not denigrating everything he achieved for us, and how far he took us.
In short: you're not being a twat.
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I have never criticised Poch’s ability as a coach
Top drawer IMO
I thought at the time he was wrong in not taking all competitions seriously and not taking the NLD seriously either when he fielded a weakened team against the Scum who knocked us out of the League Cup
That hurt!!
I wish him well but am delighted to have Jose now
Your Pep comment is one of the most hilarious things I read in a while and quite clearly shows you are on a wind up.
Barca won the CL in 2006 under Frank Rijkaard , which contained Puyol, Victor Valdes, Messi, Xavi and Iniesta within the squad. But it wouldn't have done so a couple of years later with the same players plus Eto, Henry, Pique under a different manger etc. Hilarious
It's aleady established that was the Goldern generation of Spanish football the likes of Villa, Torres, Iker, Serigo Ramos and David Silva breaking through which is why they dominated international football at the time as well but none of this happened with out Pep. I guess he won the Euro 08 and world cup 2010 for them as well!
Given his obvious talents it's amazing that the Bayen team that wiped the floor in the CL that he took over went backwards then. Strange that.
No you don't understand modern football - you just parrot the usual meaningless CL soundbites.
We need to be in the CL to keep our best players ( which best players did we lose last summer again?).
We need to be in the CL to sign top players ( yet we signed Modric, Bale, Eriksen, Berbatov, Regulion, Carrick without CL football).
We need CL to get the best commercial deals ( and yet signed one of the worse commercial kits deals with Nike despite having CL football and still have no stadium sponsor ).
The penny will drop when the expansion happens and you lot finally realise you have been chasing el dorado all this years. But you keep on deluding yourself other wise, we just need a few more CL qualifications and then we can compete! This time next year Rodney we will be millionaires!
Oh and whilst I am seemingly correcting you on everything Simone's predecessor Flores won the UEFA Cup and Supercup but you already knew that.
And I doubt A.Madrid supporters would turn on him for losing the final when they had just won the league. But you know that as well didn't you.
Wind up after wind - try harder, it is very obvious now.
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Yes, they did. This was also a complete change of fortune for them, since the only previous time they had done that was under Johan Cruyff in 1992. They had a great team, mostly built around Ronaldinho's talents in the same way Barca revolves around Messi today, and a great coach, until Ronaldinho and his buddies started partying too hard and not giving a crap about the team.
You know who cleaned that up? Pep Guardiola. It was Guardiola who literally sat down with the board and made it clear that he wanted to change the focus of the team from Ronnie, Eto'o and Deco, and instead base it on the talents of Messi and Xavi instead. Why? Because Pep Guardiola was Johan Cruyff's star pupil, and wanted to overhaul the whole club in that image.
And he did. He sold the troublemakers, imported players from the youth team, bought back players like Pique (who was nothing more than na promising young player at United), and built the side that you yourself admit is the greatest of all time. And, when he left, despite Messi's incredible talent, Barcelona only ever got to another CL final thanks to importing Neymar and Suarez.
If you think that has nothing to do with Pep's coaching, then again, you just don't understand football.
Not really, when you consider that in that time, we saw the rise of Madrid, who won 4 of them in the next 5 years and shut everyone else out. That team had Bale and Modric. You know, the players that we previously had, and yet under a less competent coach than Poch had not managed more than one CL outing, which ended rather painfully.
In the long term, yes, and if we want to attract the best players. You might not realize this, but, we don't just shop around in the UK anymore. Instead, we aspire towards getting (and keeping) the top talent in the game, and these starlets across Europe and South America are not going 'trembly' at the knees at the thought of lifting the FA Cup.
Who have Woolwich managed to attract, while being out of the top competition for so many years now?
Yeah, and none of those players were 'top players' until we bought them and turned them into it. Notice how Modric never won us anything either, despite him becoming one of the greatest players in the world. We discovered those top players, and in every single case (except Reg) they left us because they wanted to play a a higher platform. We couldn't offer them what they wanted, which was to play at the top. I guarantee you Berbatov didn't force a move to United because he wanted to lift the FA Cup, and winning the League Cup with us didn't exactly give him pause, did it?
The game isn't what you remember, and it never will be again.
Um, it's worked out pretty well for us so far. You do realize that the Champions League money has helped us build the squad we have today, yes? And now we've got one of the largest and best stadiums in the country, we can afford to up our game ever further.
You think we're going to keep filling that thing every week when COVID is gone with Europa League games? You just don't get it.
Oh, you mean like I corrected you about Southampton, like how I corrected you about Poch's Barcelona comments, like I corrected you about Guardiola? Please mate. Rhetoric only works if you have some factual basis for it.
Oh, sorry, again I was talking about real trophies. You do know that bankrupted them, too right?
I sure did, but I'm also aware that Simeone did as good a job as Ranieri did at Leicester. The difference? They didn't sack him next year, because he kept them in the Champions League, which is where they want to be. How long do you think he'll last if they spend a couple of seasons back in the Ropey League?
You have nothing to offer this conversation except bone-headed ignorance of how modern football operates.
Hey, I'm not complaining about having Jose, nor am I saying that I don't want him to win us some cups. Of course I do. It's just that Poch's failure to do the same is such a pathetic stick to try and beat him with, considering he's come closer than anyone else since 1991, and closer than anyone since 1961 to delivering a league title.
He built the team that Jose is driving. It just annoys me to see "Back In Moi Day" wankers talking shit about him and saying he's not really that good because he didn't win a trophy with a small team like Espanyol, a small team like Saints, or a rising heavyweight like us despite giving us the highest-profile match in our history.
Jurgen Klopp managed a small team for 9 years and won nothing, until he went to one of Germany's biggest clubs.
If Pochettino goes to Real Madrid or PSG, you don't think he'd win anything? And if he does, will he only then be a decent coach, despite all the work he'd done beforehand among less-than-powerhouse clubs to make him an attractive proposition in the first place?
It's just annoying to see this crap hurled at the man who got us further than anyone else in the modern era, just because someone didn't get to go to Wembley.
But surely it comes down to what has he won with anyone?
But again, up until Klopp went to BVB, you could say the same thing about him.
Poch has not yet managed a club of the (domestic) stature of Dortmund, Make no mistake, if he had gone to United after all, he would have won something with their resources, and would likely have done the same if Woolwich had pinched him from Saints instead of us.
The sad truth is, while we've seen a steady upward trajectory under ENIC, only now are we looking like a side that someone like Mourinho could make champions, and part of that is thanks to what Poch did.
Some seriously long posts guys - can't you cut them into short single points please? Much easier to follow than those massive dialogues.
For what it's worth Pochettino's obvious strength was developing young players and squad motivation, this was at a 'team' level more than one on one - ergo he got a fairly average Spurs team to achieve more than the sum of it's parts.
His weakness was in not recognising limitations, he kept expecting Sissoko to be a creative player even though he's a terrible passer, that Dier was a holding midfielder even though he never tackles, that Eriksen could take corners even though he clearly couldn't, and that players could magically come back from injury and be 100% fit first time out.
All those small weaknesses led to his downfall, but all could probably be put down to inexperience.
What's telling is that he's still out of work, he left Spurs as a failure, he can wait for a mug team like Utd or Barca to come along, but unless he's matured during his holiday they will eat him alive, or he can take a step back to a mid-table side and prove all the things he does well over again. His call obviously and it seems he's waiting for the big one to bite.
For what it's worth Pochettino's obvious strength was developing young players and squad motivation, this was at a 'team' level more than one on one - ergo he got a fairly average Spurs team to achieve more than the sum of it's parts.
His weakness was in not recognising limitations, he kept expecting Sissoko to be a creative player even though he's a terrible passer, that Dier was a holding midfielder even though he never tackles, that Eriksen could take corners even though he clearly couldn't, and that players could magically come back from injury and be 100% fit first time out.
All those small weaknesses led to his downfall, but all could probably be put down to inexperience.
What's telling is that he's still out of work, he left Spurs as a failure, he can wait for a mug team like Utd or Barca to come along, but unless he's matured during his holiday they will eat him alive, or he can take a step back to a mid-table side and prove all the things he does well over again. His call obviously and it seems he's waiting for the big one to bite.
I really don’t care about Klopp or any team he’s managed
I care about Spurs
Full stop!
I bid you good night sir
So do I. The reason I bring it up is because of the moronic arguments I've had to deal with about how Klopp is so much better than Poch because he got his first trophy after 9 years and his first move to a massive club.
Take it easy.
I love the notion that the Barcelona wouldn’t have become the dominant force without Pep. They won 1 CL, 2 La Liga’s under an average coach like Rykaard prior to him. And then when he left they won 1 CL, 2 la liga’s and 3 Copa Del Rey’s under another run of the mil manager in Luis Enrique.
But no key was Peps coaching of David Villa, Henry, Messi, Xavi, Inesita, Busquets to name a few which result in one more league title and one more CL than the average manager he replaced and the average manager who followed him. Spain won the World Cup and Euros with average coaches with virtually the same team as well. It’s almost as if that group of players were the best of all time and could carry any manager to major silverware. Funny that.
but hey he must have relocated that youth success at Bayern and City surely? How many CL’s has he won with those clubs again? How finals has got City to? You do seem to have penchant for coaches who are made to look better by the teams under them clearly.
As for the CL - you are clearly just showing your ignorance again. You’ve convinced yourself that way we become an elite club when the revenues generated from that can never result in such a thing. And again the penny will soon drop when they expand this and we become regulars with the rest of the big 6 ( what’s your solution then hey brains?). As for it helping us build the squad today? Which player are you taking about , Sanchez? Sissoko? Seggesson? Aurier? The only top signing we made with it was Ndomble and he still has some way to go. Which players did Woolwich sign without it? You know the answer already - they paid £72 million for Pepe who was arguably the best player in France and Patey for £45 million last summer who walked out on a CL for a non CL club.
But you keep on kidding yourself that we need CL footbal to keep our best players just how it did with United with Ronaldo, Chelsea with Hazard, Liverpool with Suarez and Coutinho. It will be different with of course!
As for Simeone - well no they didn’t sack him probably because he won them multiple trophies trophies and continued to challenge at the top. And they didn’t go bankrupt under Flores - they wouldn’t have the debt levels that currently do if they had.
You are like the Donald Trump of the Spurs forums - lies, deceit and complete ignorance. I bet you only got into football in the last decade - guaranteed. Five minute fans really do my head in.
That's what happens when you get spammed by a barrage of nonsense. Also, you just know that if I'd left any 'point' unanswered, he'd simply ignore everything else which was said and focus on that one thing.
It's just standard internet practice among those who can't handle an actual debate.
I don't agree that he left Spurs as a failure at all, and that's what rankles in my mind.
I don't deny his inexperience in the ways you mention, but at the end of the day, he was hired to do a job: that job was to elevate our platform and ambitions by securing us as a fixture in the Top 4, and enabling us to build even further for the future. That's the 'project' he kept talking about, and the same one, ultimately, that had been handed to AVB.
And, he succeeded. We did become a Top 4 fixture, and apparently slightly ahead of expectations. In fact, all the signs are that he overachieved for us in terms of what Levy had expected. That's why, despite Poch taking us to 3rd and 2nd etc, Levy still didn't fully splash the cash except in very calculated ways, and that dried up as the stadium build was completed. We weren't ready yet financially to keep up.
Don't get me wrong. This is not a Levy Out screed, far from it. I think the bald one has done, and continues to do a great job. But, that to me is the great source of tension which led to the ultimate collapse of the Poch team. He wanted more, Levy told him there was no more to give, and when we lost the CL final, something broke in Poch and was never the same again.
But that's not a 'failure', and it wasn't a miracle which got us to the CL final. Along the way we brushed aside Dortmund, beat Madrid the year before, fended off City at the absolute height of their powers, and managed to conquer an Ajax side who had set the continent on fire by smashing their way through the established heavyweights. We deserved to be in that final, even though our league form had suffered hugely to get us there.
Just because Poch lost that match, or just because he didn't win that League Cup final against Mourinho's Chelsea, or even just because he didn't manage to beat Leicester (when no-one else could either) doesn't make him a failure to me. He succeeded at what he was asked to do, and sadly because of the way it all went down, never got to reap what he had sown in terms of continuing the 'project' further.
Now it's Jose's turn, but that doesn't erase how grateful I feel for what Poch did for us.
Dortmund ‘s revenues are less ours but he managed to overcome Bayern twice who are financially light years ahead of them and who plunder their best players all the time.
He then went to Liverpool - took over a horror team, had a net spend less than Everton and won the CL and league title,
But he is not better than Pochettinho.
Comedy gold at its finest