-
The Fighting Cock is a forum for fans of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Here you can discuss Spurs latest matches, our squad, tactics and any transfer news surrounding the club. Registration gives you access to all our forums (including 'Off Topic' discussion) and removes most of the adverts (you can remove them all via an account upgrade). You're here now, you might as well...
Latest Spurs videos from Sky Sports
Modric has 177 spanish league games with a club like Real Madrid and has only 9 goals to his name in 6 years. Sissoko has scored 12 PL goals in those 6 years. Sissoko wins.
Winks has 1 goal in 46 PL matches.
Dier has 8 goals in 146 PL matches
Wanyama has 8 goals in 142 PL matches
Lets just play Dier and Wanyama in the middle and watch the goals fly in...?
Not that any of this proves who is the worse finisher since there is no mention of how many shots it took them to score these goals. Last year Kane took like 180 odd shots to score his 30 while Salah and Aguero had 50 fewer shots to score theirs. All were good goalscorers but not all were finishing brilliantly.
The bottom-line is judge him on what job he is asked to perform within the team. He's a player I have never thought highly of but he's performed OK (not great, not brilliant) but OK in most games he's played and there have been about 5 games where he's been admirable. He's not nor will he ever be a player to change a game, or a player to get you out of your seat. He performs a function, a brute of a bloke that makes life a bit awkward for the oppo.
Stats only mean fuck all if we were uneducated.
I am just pointing out you used to wrong stats for conclusion on who is the better (or worse) finisher. You used the stat for frequent goalscorer instead of chances needed per goal which would show better finisher.
No, I used 'stats' in the connection that Sissoko is a shit finisher. Which he is. But someone like Dembele NEVER gets that shit thrown at him. He gets the odd "Now we know why he doesn't shoot" etc. when he does shoot and it hits a fan in the face. But because Dembele is more aesthetically pleasing to look at than Sissoko, he doesn't get near enough stick.
He isn't a striker. Why would he be a good finisher? It's just another thing to use to put a player down that someone doesn't rate. Dembele, a player Poch laughably put up there with Ronaldinho and Maradona, couldn't finish his dinner ffs.
I couldn't care less that Sissoko skies a shot out of the stadium. I'd much rather he didn't shoot, it's not his job. But the last few games, he has been doing his job very well. Just frustrating when other people can't really see that and just use past occurrences or nitpick at little things he done during a game, when absolutely no other player in our side gets that.
Stats mean fuck all. Watch a game of football, that's good enough. Stats won't tell you that Kane is a good passer of a football. Watching him play certainly will though.
yup and I must admit when I see him preparing to come on towards the end of a game I can't help but feel he will sure things up at the back. On the flip-side we often have a late break and if he is involved I feel less confident we're going to get anything from it.
The one thing I've always liked from him, especially when he's subbed on when seeing out a game, is he will carry the ball up the pitch. Prevents us from sitting deep inviting oppo onto us and the tension and pressure that can lead to.
Yes, nothing wrong with the piece you posted not what you are saying.
Both are spot on and he has been valuable player in the light of current standing in CM.
But I also get the point that even though he IS asked to the things described, he IS NOT instructed to waste crosses and give away throw-ins/corners. That is what will still be pointed out.
And yea, it is true that players with more remarkable skills and duties are forgiven more. Why? Because their task and burdain laid on them is higher. What I mean is that Frank Ribery at his peak was the player who lost posession most often over 90 minutes in whole of the Bundesliga. Yet he was not dropped or blaimed. And it was because as a sideproduct he was the one who registred the most assists for the same period as well. He had high risk-reward situation on his hands and he fill very difficult role. At the same time, Sissoko is has given much more "industrial/regular/ordinary" role of closing up the oppo players and carrying up the ball (without creating any end product with it). So his role is less demanding and hence less will be forgiven to him. Doesn't that seem logical?
Why should a person being paid close to 5m per year to do a job be given a free ride to do all the basic things so badly that that article rightly points out? If I went to the theatre to see a play and one of the main actors couldn't act, couldn't remember his lines and didn't always stand in the right places, he wouldn't get "let off" because he's at least out there moving about, it would ruin the whole play, be rightly criticised by paying customers, and he wouldn't be getting 5m to do it.
I don't think he does perform the function he's being asked to perform well, that's not all his fault, he shouldn't be asked to perform it IMO, but his deficiencies are one of the reasons we look so awful a lot of the time he's playing, it also effects this around him and the team dynamic - if people are bamboozled into thinking he's had a good game just because he charges up the pitch and whacks the ball out the stadium twice a game more fool them. He doesn't close down well, he doesn't read the game intelligently enough to do it, he gives the ball away stupidly - as he did against West Ham, in exactly the same position as Trippier did against Wolves, which resulted in an even more dangerous situation (that brought an outstanding save out of Lloris), but we slaughter Trippier and make excuses for Sissoko (or most didn't even mention it)?
Dembele's lack of incisive, creative end product has always been levelled at him, but the reason it gets partially forgiven is not because he's more aesthetically pleasing but because, when he was fit and on form, he did do other things well. His technique is extremely good, his positional sense is good, he rarely gives the ball away, he isn't rattled into miss-controlling the ball, he's tenacious, used to press and win the ball back well.
Whereas Sissoko does nothing to a high standard, in his prime Dembele did plenty of things to a high standard, his only real weaknesses was dwelling on the ball too long and a lack of passing incision.
As much as I'm not Dembele's number one fan, there's a shitload of reasons why he gets less criticism than Sissoko.
Disagree that his role is less demanding, in the last two games alone he has covered a huge area of the pitch, made worse too by our faltering FB's.
I simply don't get why you would bring Ribery into this at all, a player for the best part of a decade who has been world class and who doesn't play CM/DM. If anything you're proving the very point being made. Judge him on the role he's being asked to do, he's not an AM, a winger, a striker, for us he's a makeshift DM/CM. This is his role. Flip over the coin for a second and look at Busquets at Barca, same position and arguably the best in the world at it, how many crosses does he put in the box???? Is this what Barca fans are expecting from him before a game?
If it was then they would be all over us trying to sign Sissoko because he assists once every 648 min (Busquets once every 1,047 mins) and scores at 3.5 times the rate of him!
But none of this is the point.
Your problem is you are judging our players (midfield) on the players that you want. Not what we have. If you can sort this out you will enjoy watching Tottenham a lot more than you appear to do. Our midfield is our midfield, it has been thus for a few years now, it's been sublime in this time too. It now has some issues, issues that have largely come about through injuries to all of them, two probably chronically (Dembele & Wanyama) and other serious (Winks) and the third as to be expected (Dier). The last, Sissoko is a bang average player who's putting in a couple of good performances when we really, really needed them most. He has stepped up and delivered when we've been at our most fucked. Instead of recognising this you continue to slate, complain and blame.
This issue basically is yours.
I brought in Ribery as an example of player whose role is extremely demanding and who got away with many duels lost due to the fact that what he delivered was also exceptional. At the same time almost nothing that Sissoko does is exceptional (sorry, that is what I think and that is what was said in the article - if he would produce anything exceptional the very piece would not suggest he will be dropped when everyone else will be fit), hence his mistakes are brought up more. I was not saying they play same role. God, I did not know that I could not expect any abstract thinking ability to start with.
But okay, let's start again then. Let's use your player. Busquets.
I agree, Barca fans do not expect him to give assists nor super accurate crosses to the box. His role is to help to win back the ball, close down the room of opposite players and support defence. He does that. But what he does not do is very elementary mistakes in ball handling. He does not gift corners, he don't lose posession with unaccurate touches. His role and expectations for him are to keep things simple and don't loose the ball in process. Do the simpler things and do them right. And he does that thing very very well. While Sissoko is doing those things as well, but also makes quite some elementary errors. He gets called up for those because he is expected to do the simple thing as well.
At the same time let's say Coutinho (DISCLAIMER: NOT USING HIM AS AN EXAMPLE IN THE SENSE THAT HE WOULD PLAY SAME POSITION THAN SISSOKO. ONCE MORE - THEY PLAY DIFFERENT ROLES. I BRING HIM UP TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE OF DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS TO DIFFERENT PLAYERS HAVING DIFFERENT TASKS) - he is expected to open up opposite teams with pass, or run or to beat player with a dribble etc. It happens that at times he takes on a player and loses the ball. But it is okay because his task is more risky by nature. And fans acknowledge it and can live with it as his task is more risky/difficult.
But Sissoko is not a great player, never has been, never will be but has played well when asked to cover a team that's struggling with fucking loads of injuries to some of our best players. His performances have not cost this team points, which can't be said about some players right now.
yes and it's this very fact I cut Lamella and CE slack as they often try to thread the ball though the eye of a needle in the final third, it's as important as scoring... It's the silly passes given away or pad crosses that I can't stand.
Absolutely.
I agree with this. I also said in my first post that he has been useful for the team.
And I have defended him in matchday threads for number of times this season. And I clearly included him into my lineup for todays game.
I was just trying to reason here why his problems get pointed out so much, that's all.
Ah...the old existential crisis defence....cunning
In the same way that the issue of Trippier is all in your head you mean?
Our midfield has never been sublime. When Wanyama and Dembele we’re both fit and together it functioned extremely competently.
It is not a figment of my imagination that our midfield is terrible right now, and has been gradually degrading for a while.
I'm not in particular a fan of Sissoko the footballer, I think he's a little clumsy and one-paced but I will support him as an important part of the squad.
What I do find weird is the amount of fan hate a functional player with a poor first touch has received compared to Vincent Janssen, who has been utterly hopeless and yet given a lot of slack.
What I do find weird is the amount of fan hate a functional player with a poor first touch has received compared to Vincent Janssen, who has been utterly hopeless and yet given a lot of slack.
Not sure where you have been for the last 3 years or so but we have blown away every single rival in the PL with our Midfield. We also did the same to some of the best teams in Europe too. At our best our midfield dominates the oppo, this has been the case in almost every game I have watch Spurs play in the past 3yrs or so.
This season we have a mass of injuries to some of our best players, 9 of 11 first team players who didn't have a pre-season and we have only played a couple of "home" games all season (to which these home games are now being played in an atmosphere that is akin to a behind closed doors game).
Sissoko isn't our first choice midfielder (CM or DM), this is because he's not that good a player but when called upon he has stepped up and we have continued to win games. This should be recognised but no you seem to feel it's worthy of some kind of ranker and stomping and stamping of feet. I simply don't get this at all. Why are you expecting him to be Busquets or some such? Think of what Wimmer did when he stepped up when Vertonghen was injured, or Davies last season when Rose was injured/wanted out. The team is even more depleted now than it was back then too.
Again you bring up Tripper when the topic is not Trippier.