Levy / ENIC

[BangkokSpud]

As we all know the Stadium finances sit outside the football club, however one pays the other to a degree, as performance on the pitch reflects income off the pitch.

The Cost of the stadium will be XXXXXX doesn't matter what that number is what matters is how much we owe ... Spurs will probably start next season with 400m debt ... sounds a lot doesn't it ... but that debt is on a five year term at very low rates, it could easily be converted to bonds as Woolwich did, but now almost certainly that won't happen, so why not?

Well the bottom line is we are making a fortune revenue has jumped from 209m to 306m last year and will jump again this year, the club have signed more sponsorship and advertising deals than you can shake a stick at, despite all the negativity around the delays everyone and their dog want to be connected to the new ground ... on top of that when we were planning NWHL there was no allowance for Champions League we just weren't expecting to be in it, that income alone has added 50m a year in revenue for four years 200m we hadn't planned, the TV deal is producing 20m more a year than forecast, the list just goes on ... we had planned to hit 350m income in 5 years 2022, that's now been adjusted upwards to 450-500m ...

Even with the Brexit effect, which is a good headline and the lower pound did impact build costs, the timing of the new stadium build could not have come at a better time ... football income is booming, England had a stellar World Cup, and Spurs and even better one. Our US tie-up may well have benefited from oddly the delay, this got a lot of coverage, and the failed Khan bid which also got a lot of coverage, all raising the anticipation for next season when the NFL will arrive at the Lane ...

So despite the delay, and the cost overrun, with the additional monies already generated, and yet to be generated, our club could: pay down that debt in five years: increase salary spend by 100m: spend net 100m+ a year on transfers: and still make a profit ... that's beyond even the most optimistic forecast made in 2006

Luck, good management, a bit of both ... who knows ... but come 2022 Levy/ENIC could be the owners of a debt-free 2 billion pound business .. not bad when they bought it for just 47m ....

The only thing that could feck that up is dropping out of the top six ... I have every confidence we will do what it takes to stop that happening ... after all it's just good business ...

 

[78Spur]

The Club should have originally said two years at Wembley , let us Moan then accept and get on with it

Instead what has played out has been rather farcical
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if there are headlines in a few months claiming spurs are running out of time to have stadium ready for start of next season

I think this is one of those 'with the benefit of hindsight' posts, no one sets out to fail, yet most major engineering projects do overrun and the problem has been the extent of the overrun. I wanted to hit agree/disagree/like all at the same time!

One might argue, had they started giving it 2 years to complete the new ground, it still would have overrun because there would have not have been a looming deadline, so let's keep open the possibility that it may still have become protracted in any case, I bet with that 2 year deadline the test events would have been scheduled in July 2019 out of season and then if a failure occurred that's the start of 19/20 blown out of the water. I am not saying that's what would have happened but I can certainly imagine it.

The principal is that the club took a hit for the rest of the year now presumably so that they can start hosting in 2019, though they have been cautious about announcing that, I think this is the problem, the uncertainty. However if we start hosting in 2019 for the remaining 10 games we might be glad that they did push for this season because even though I have a super convenient line to Wembley I appreciate most much prefer White Hart Lane and ultimately that's where Tottenham Hotspur belong.

I think we're better judging the club's approach to this once NWHL is open and hopefully it will be a better experience for the extra time they've taken.

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

As we all know the Stadium finances sit outside the football club, however one pays the other to a degree, as performance on the pitch reflects income off the pitch.

The Cost of the stadium will be XXXXXX doesn't matter what that number is what matters is how much we owe ... Spurs will probably start next season with 400m debt ... sounds a lot doesn't it ... but that debt is on a five year term at very low rates, it could easily be converted to bonds as Woolwich did, but now almost certainly that won't happen, so why not?

Well the bottom line is we are making a fortune revenue has jumped from 209m to 306m last year and will jump again this year, the club have signed more sponsorship and advertising deals than you can shake a stick at, despite all the negativity around the delays everyone and their dog want to be connected to the new ground ... on top of that when we were planning NWHL there was no allowance for Champions League we just weren't expecting to be in it, that income alone has added 50m a year in revenue for four years 200m we hadn't planned, the TV deal is producing 20m more a year than forecast, the list just goes on ... we had planned to hit 350m income in 5 years 2022, that's now been adjusted upwards to 450-500m ...

Even with the Brexit effect, which is a good headline and the lower pound did impact build costs, the timing of the new stadium build could not have come at a better time ... football income is booming, England had a stellar World Cup, and Spurs and even better one. Our US tie-up may well have benefited from oddly the delay, this got a lot of coverage, and the failed Khan bid which also got a lot of coverage, all raising the anticipation for next season when the NFL will arrive at the Lane ...

So despite the delay, and the cost overrun, with the additional monies already generated, and yet to be generated, our club could: pay down that debt in five years: increase salary spend by 100m: spend net 100m+ a year on transfers: and still make a profit ... that's beyond even the most optimistic forecast made in 2006

Luck, good management, a bit of both ... who knows ... but come 2022 Levy/ENIC could be the owners of a debt-free 2 billion pound business .. not bad when they bought it for just 47m ....

The only thing that could feck that up is dropping out of the top six ... I have every confidence we will do what it takes to stop that happening ... after all it's just good business ...

Tend to agree with that, but other clubs also benefit from an uplift in their revenues that weren't planned or forecast. But one thing that is crucial is the revenue number and even without the New Stadium to report a figure of £381m is massively impressive (Woolwich reported £423m in 2017 up from £350m the previous year) so the financial gap has closed massively and as you point out, CL will mean Woolwich, in this case, will be hit to the tune of £20m-£30m this year, combine the fact that in the same period we also bank £40m it's possible that our revenues align for the first time in probably 30 years!!!!!

When they started to build the Emirates their revenues were approx £120m (I'm going off memory here can't be arsed to check if I've got that correct) and their costs to build/loan was £360m (ended up being more), so that's three times revenue that was borrowed (they were also in debt before they started the build too). By comparison we started debt free and paid down at least £200m of our own cash (not sure if that went to the stadium or any of the other building we've been doing eg Hotspur Way, Lilywhite House, land etc) but to have revenues of knocking on the door of £400m against borrowings of +£600m is less than two times revenue!

But it does emphasise the importance of CL money, not just to bank it but by being in it means two of your rivals aren't, making it a competitive swing of £30-£60m!!!

*sorry if I've cocked up these numbers, don't have the time to check this morning.

 

[Tomo]

Curious to know what ENIC’s end game is. Once the infrastructure is complete then what?

Do we seriously look to spend and compete with the big boys, I mean we have been in austerity for about 10 or more years (a reverse Woolwich where they built the stadium then saved and we did it prior) so you’d think soon as the cash comes in we should be about to invest at least some of it.

I guess my point is I know ENIC want to sell us for big bucks but we will be a club that produces vast wealth for the owners only the way Woolwich are set up or will we invest to try and compete at the very top.

For me whether ENIC are good long term for Tottenham the motives post stadium build is very much the decisive factor. If they stay and use the money to compete I can see a very bright future, if not I don’t see us moving on much from where we are and maybe backwards if Poch goes.

 

[Blanchflower]

Curious to know what ENIC’s end game is. Once the infrastructure is complete then what?

Do we seriously look to spend and compete with the big boys, I mean we have been in austerity for about 10 or more years (a reverse Woolwich where they built the stadium then saved and we did it prior) so you’d think soon as the cash comes in we should be about to invest at least some of it.

I guess my point is I know ENIC want to sell us for big bucks but we will be a club that produces vast wealth for the owners only the way Woolwich are set up or will we invest to try and compete at the very top.

For me whether ENIC are good long term for Tottenham the motives post stadium build is very much the decisive factor. If they stay and use the money to compete I can see a very bright future, if not I don’t see us moving on much from where we are and maybe backwards if Poch goes.

I think even if they did sell Levy would probably want to stay on as Chairman.

 

[ShutUpPatrik]

I think even if they did sell Levy would probably want to stay on as Chairman.

I could see this as well. At the very least for the first year or so.

We complain about Levy's unwillingness to spend. So it would be interesting to see him operating under a owner who is more willing to open the purse.

 

[BangkokSpud]

I could see this as well. At the very least for the first year or so.

We complain about Levy's unwillingness to spend. So it would be interesting to see him operating under a owner who is more willing to open the purse.

I don't think it's fair to say Levy is unwilling to spend, sure for the last several years he's been hoarding the cash to spend on the stadium, but we've still spent 238m on players in the last five years, just enough to stay top six ...

If you believe that the cost of the stadium project is now approaching one billion then for our club to only have 381m of net debt is feckin' incredible ...

It means that far from being unwilling to spend Levy has in fact spent over 600m on the stadium project .... all money that as a major shareholder he could literally have kept a large percentage of for himself ....

Just remember: Martin Edwards made £94m from his directorships and sale of shares in Manchester United, David Moores £90m selling his inherited Liverpool stake to Tom Hicks and George Gillett, David Dein £75m selling the Woolwich stake he bought cheaply in the 1980s to Alisher Usmanov, the list goes on ....

Levy could have done the same at any stage in the last fifteen years but he's stuck it out .... sure his shares are now worth maybe 200m ... but in ten years that could be 1,000m who knows ... he's stuck it out during the 'difficult' years why the hell would he sell when things could be about to get a whole lot better?

The plan has always been to tough-it-out until 2022, when our loans will be paid off or refinanced, to expect that to suddenly change is unrealistic, and very risky, with luck and the continued massive increase in revenue 2022 might change to 2021 or even 2020 but don't expect massive spends before that, you'll just be disappointed ...

 

[SchmoodSpur]

What I don't understand about certain fans, is their expectation that Joe Lewis would choose us as the benefactor of all his money when they claim ''you don't die with your money''.

Lewis owns over 200 companies, and a hell of a lot of them he owned long before we were even on his radar. As much as I'd like to think we're special to Lewis, we aren't. Nothing about the way he behaves suggests we're anything but an investment to him. Levy doesn't have the capital to invest 100's of millions himself and he's just an employee of Lewis. So criticising Levy for not sanctioning a warchest the equivalent of City/United seems a bit silly.

People really are barking up the wrong tree thinking we'll get anything out of Lewis benefactorially (is that a word?). This is a guy that has all the money in the world yet avoids taxes.

People need to switch on.

 

[ArcspacE]

The only thing to really measure it against is Woolwich’s mess, and even with Brexit doubling the costs on us, it will be viable. Just.
.

Yes, I’m sure you’ve had acces to all the feasibility reports in order to make that statement.

 

[ArcspacE]

What I don't understand about certain fans, is their expectation that Joe Lewis would choose us as the benefactor of all his money when they claim ''you don't die with your money''.

Lewis owns over 200 companies, and a hell of a lot of them he owned long before we were even on his radar. As much as I'd like to think we're special to Lewis, we aren't. Nothing about the way he behaves suggests we're anything but an investment to him. Levy doesn't have the capital to invest 100's of millions himself and he's just an employee of Lewis. So criticising Levy for not sanctioning a warchest the equivalent of City/United seems a bit silly.

People really are barking up the wrong tree thinking we'll get anything out of Lewis benefactorially (is that a word?). This is a guy that has all the money in the world yet avoids taxes.

People need to switch on.

He’ll most likely sell us for a massive profit soon after the stadium is done. Every good businessman knows when it’s the right time to invest in his ‘investment’

 

[ArcspacE]

Tend to agree with that, but other clubs also benefit from an uplift in their revenues that weren't planned or forecast. But one thing that is crucial is the revenue number and even without the New Stadium to report a figure of £381m is massively impressive (Woolwich reported £423m in 2017 up from £350m the previous year) so the financial gap has closed massively and as you point out, CL will mean Woolwich, in this case, will be hit to the tune of £20m-£30m this year, combine the fact that in the same period we also bank £40m it's possible that our revenues align for the first time in probably 30 years!!!!!

When they started to build the Emirates their revenues were approx £120m (I'm going off memory here can't be arsed to check if I've got that correct) and their costs to build/loan was £360m (ended up being more), so that's three times revenue that was borrowed (they were also in debt before they started the build too). By comparison we started debt free and paid down at least £200m of our own cash (not sure if that went to the stadium or any of the other building we've been doing eg Hotspur Way, Lilywhite House, land etc) but to have revenues of knocking on the door of £400m against borrowings of +£600m is less than two times revenue!

But it does emphasise the importance of CL money, not just to bank it but by being in it means two of your rivals aren't, making it a competitive swing of £30-£60m!!!

*sorry if I've cocked up these numbers, don't have the time to check this morning.

Where did you read we put down 200m ourselves?

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

Where did you read we put down 200m ourselves?

Because we've been buying up land for 10yrs before we started to build. Then when we broke ground there were many months (sorry can't recall how many) worth of construction and legal etc already paid for as whilst our annual financials showed we were debt free for that period. Ergo we've already paid a huge amount when we started construction.

There is a detailed breakdown that some accountant did on SSC ages ago. Most are of course speculation and educated guesses, but if you've bought up hundreds of properties, demolished them, designed a stadium appointed legal and whatever you need and started to build 3/4 of the foundations and reported a profit, it's fair to say that we've paid off a fair lump.

 

[Blanchflower]

Because we've been buying up land for 10yrs before we started to build. Then when we broke ground there were many months (sorry can't recall how many) worth of construction and legal etc already paid for as whilst our annual financials showed we were debt free for that period. Ergo we've already paid a huge amount when we started construction.

There is a detailed breakdown that some accountant did on SSC ages ago. Most are of course speculation and educated guesses, but if you've bought up hundreds of properties, demolished them, designed a stadium appointed legal and whatever you need and started to build 3/4 of the foundations and reported a profit, it's fair to say that we've paid off a fair lump.

The old rule of thumb was 1/3 purchase costs, 1/3 development costs, 1/3 profit.

Won't quite be true here, but you are right.

 

[ArcspacE]

Because we've been buying up land for 10yrs before we started to build. Then when we broke ground there were many months (sorry can't recall how many) worth of construction and legal etc already paid for as whilst our annual financials showed we were debt free for that period. Ergo we've already paid a huge amount when we started construction.

There is a detailed breakdown that some accountant did on SSC ages ago. Most are of course speculation and educated guesses, but if you've bought up hundreds of properties, demolished them, designed a stadium appointed legal and whatever you need and started to build 3/4 of the foundations and reported a profit, it's fair to say that we've paid off a fair lump.

You implied we paid for it cash which I highly doubt. Also the figure is speculative

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

You implied we paid for it cash which I highly doubt. Also the figure is speculative

What I said is crystal clear.

I’ve also said it’s speculative and made up from educated guesses because no-one knows the actual figures apart from Spurs. But what is it you don’t believe?
1. That they have bought up huge swaths of land and property in the area and have been doing so for over a decade
2. That they have demolished these buildings
3. That when we broke ground on the stadium our accounts at the time reported we were debt free
4. That they continue to buy up many more properties in the area that they hope to earn money from in the wider regeneration of Tottenham

Some light reading for you hot of the press confirm the land grabs.

 

[ArcspacE]

What I said is crystal clear.

I’ve also said it’s speculative and made up from educated guesses because no-one knows the actual figures apart from Spurs. But what is it you don’t believe?
1. That they have bought up huge swaths of land and property in the area and have been doing so for over a decade
2. That they have demolished these buildings
3. That when we broke ground on the stadium our accounts at the time reported we were debt free
4. That they continue to buy up many more properties in the area that they hope to earn money from in the wider regeneration of Tottenham

Some light reading for you hot of the press confirm the land grabs.

I don't dispute any of that - just disagree we've dropped 200m cash which we had lying in our bank account. It was financed as part of the NDP

 

[Guido 🇺🇦]

I don't dispute any of that - just disagree we've dropped 200m cash which we had lying in our bank account. It was financed as part of the NDP

Then back that up.
How much do you think we've spent on acquiring literally hundreds of buildings (The Guardian lists a coupe which all show as Multi-Million pound purchases)?
Where is that line of credit shown in our financials?
The first mention of finance regarding the NDP was made public about a year into the build of the stadium. Prior to this there has been 10yrs of non-stop buying land, properties, demolishing said properties, sitting on others. There has been Brook House, Lilywhite House, the development near Northumberland Park Sation, Spurs lodge developed into houses and an Autistic School, the legal costs involved for all this and the initial early phase of the build (3/4's of the foundations). The only borrowings during this time was about £30m(??? I'm guessing this fig as I can't remember the amount off the top of my head and can't be arsed to look for it so allow for a significant variation +/- on that fig, we were told at the time the facility was for the development of Hotspur Way that was rumoured to have cost +£60m).

We may well have financed every penny if that's the case show me where: Annual Reports | Tottenham Hotspur

 

[mouse]

Has this been posted yet?

In the shadow of Spurs’ new stadium local residents fear for future | David Conn

I'm not going to pretend to understand the entirety of our agenda here but surely ENIC looking to profit from the redevelopment is no different to any other private development contractor looking to win the work and make their money? In fact THFC are probably more likely to have the areas best interests at heart being that, you know, we've been based in the area and its major source of income for over a century.

I appreciate the delays and uncertainty will be distressing for the locals (shout out to archway steel for making the process take 3 years longer than it should have done). I cant imagine what it must be like to have a constant fear of being made homeless.

Obviously Uncle Joe and Danny Boy will make sure that what ever plan is put in place will benefit them and their shareholders as much as they can within reason. But i have even less faith in leaving it to the myopic bureaucracy and inefficiency of the local government. You could, arguably, say that they are to blame for the area being in such a bad way in the first place.

 

[justin]

Have they gone yet ?

 

[hiatus]

Has this been posted yet?

In the shadow of Spurs’ new stadium local residents fear for future | David Conn

I'm not going to pretend to understand the entirety of our agenda here but surely ENIC looking to profit from the redevelopment is no different to any other private development contractor looking to win the work and make their money? In fact THFC are probably more likely to have the areas best interests at heart being that, you know, we've been based in the area and its major source of income for over a century.

I appreciate the delays and uncertainty will be distressing for the locals (shout out to archway steel for making the process take 3 years longer than it should have done). I cant imagine what it must be like to have a constant fear of being made homeless.

Obviously Uncle Joe and Danny Boy will make sure that what ever plan is put in place will benefit them and their shareholders as much as they can within reason. But i have even less faith in leaving it to the myopic bureaucracy and inefficiency of the local government. You could, arguably, say that they are to blame for the area being in such a bad way in the first place.

Like three posts up.