"Yid" chanting...

[Thelonious]

I knew as I posted that someone would post a picture of one, I'd rather you posted John Leslie or Alan Pardew as opposed to that cunt tbph.

A lot of people I know only refer to him as the rapist

A lot of people I know only refer to him as a cunt.

 

[HyNdZee]

Everyone has a right to free speech of course, but that's not the issue.

I reserve my right to call someone a 'n*gger' should I choose to, but then I respect the right of that individual to not have to face such abuse thus don't use it.

Having the right to use a word, and using a word are two very different things my friend.

With regard to the shaven headed gentlemen, looking like a lout and looking like a racist lout are again two very different things.

Why? Why is it more offensive to use the word Yid than cunt? It's subjective dependent on the perceiver, not the person saying it. A racist will use the word cunt out of racism, despite it not being a racist word. It's the intent is the problem, not the word. Can we then ban the word "hiss" when we have people hissing at us?

Or is "hiss" not a racist word?

Because calling someone a cunt is not insulting them purely based on their race?

Do you not see that by using someone's race, against them, you're therefore suggesting that there is something wrong with who they are biologically?

Unless someone has has literally been born as a giant vagina, then I don't see how calling someone a cunt is remotely comparable.

Of course I do... but I fail to see where Spurs fans using the word Yid are using someone's race against them, suggesting something is wrong with them biologically.

Are you saying that hissing isn't racist but using the word Yid in defence is? If everyone stops using the word Yid it won't stop racism or people being offended.

 

[ZoC]

f Spurs fans were being slated for having a huge black fanbase, and the N word became our call to arms, I'd know no different so it's hard to say what my reaction would be. However, it seems preposterous to even consider that happening (I'm aware of the irony of this).

this is another topic for debate. i've reason to believe the football club isn't doing nearly enough to encourage local people (of wotever shade) to support the club. some might consider whether this makes the club racist, given the demography of the area.

 

[Dr. Filth]

Of course I do... but I fail to see where Spurs fans using the word Yid are using someone's race against them, suggesting something is wrong with them biologically.

Are you saying that hissing isn't racist but using the word Yid in defence is? If everyone stops using the word Yid it won't stop racism or people being offended.

This is a terrible argument against stamping out a pocket of racism.

 

[Freudlyuchenko]

I'm a bit confused re the ethnicity that constitutes Jewishness.

What follows is what I think I know. I'll keep it brief(ish) but I've got a real interest in the subject so would appreciate anyone who knows more about it than me, telling me if this is all bollocks.

OK, the root of Judaism is Hebraic and before Rome sacked Jerusalem, most likely the vast majority of people considered to be Jews were Hebrews. But since the Jews were expelled from Israel, and dispersed among Europe, you had two main groupings, the western and the eastern. The western became the Sephardic, and those in the east spent hundreds of years mixing with Turkic, Slavic, and Eurasian peoples, gradually becoming more and more detached from the Hebrew root of Judaism. Not just genetically mixing with other ethnicities, but forgetting the old culture, language, dietary laws, etc.

In Muslim Spain, the Sephardic Jews had more freedom to move around the core centres of Judaism in the Middle East - which they wouldn't have been able to do easily if living under Catholic rule which forced Jews to convert. So the western Jews retained the Hebraic root more prominently.

Then much later on, when the Latinised Jews moved from where they had been settling in Germany further to the east, to the slavic territory (the migration fuelled, at least in part - and inevitably - by anti-Semitic hatred), then they gradually mixed with (and taught) the Jews they met in the east, trying to get them back in touch with their Hebrew roots. The mixing of languages, mainly German and Hebrew but with Slavic influences etc, gradually formed the language Yiddish.

Over all that time you've got Gentiles converting to Judaism and mixing into the pot too.

So it must be conceivable that a lot of Jews aren't that strongly Hebraic at all - as there are so many possibilities in terms of lineage for them. They could come from a Greek line that converted to the religion 1500 years ago or whatever.

If you bothered to read that, cheers.

Jews first were in Canaan, now Israel then they went to Egypt during a famine though some went further in Africa to place such as Kenya as well as that some became Berber (note most Berbers are not Jewish but there is a Jewish Berber community), then those in Egypt went back to Canaan, the state ofJudea was founded, for two thousand years it varied from been independent or to part of foreign empires, e.g. Assyrian, Seleucid, Babylonian etc, Romans come along, Jews rebel, Romans get angry expel 'most' of the Jews to parts of the empire.

Western Roman empire collapses, Eastern Roman empire became Byzantium, Remnants of the Western Roman Empire form the Holy Roman empire is Germany and Lombardy (Northern Italy), Pogroms (mass murders of Jews) were frequent So Jews either stayed, or went to either the Islamic world in relative sanctuary or North Eastern Europe where situations like the King of Poland allowed the Jews to live as he needed people to work as bankers in his nation.

Spanish inquisition and similar organisations lead the expulsion from countries such as England, Jews either head to these havens, or convert or pretend to convert and in secret practice Judaism. Grand Duchy of (i think) Florence issues an invite for Jews, Muslims and those Jews who pretended to be Christian to go to that area where they frived until the second World War, (Note in the 19th century/ 1800s Jews began to migrate back to what is now Israel in number though Jews had being there all that time, we know this as it is documented that Jews and Muslims both fought the Crusaders together.

These Jews often did not 'mix' with other groups until late on, though I assume they had in at least a small way by the 19th century as Britain had a Jewish PM. I don't believe there are too many Jewish Greeks when it comes to the total population, most Jews kept together.

 

[HyNdZee]

Of course I do... but I fail to see where Spurs fans using the word Yid are using someone's race against them, suggesting something is wrong with them biologically.

Are you saying that hissing isn't racist but using the word Yid in defence is? If everyone stops using the word Yid it won't stop racism or people being offended.

This is a terrible argument against stamping out a pocket of racism.

Please elaborate. Where is the pocket of racism you're trying to stamp out and who is it from?

I don't think people are anti-semitic because of the way Spurs fans use the word Yid. If the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea etc. are singing "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz" I'm not just gonna sit down and shut up in case my use of the word Yid in defence may or may not be offensive to a minority that doesn't understand the context behind the way I am using it.

Surely the pronunciation and actions of the people using the word count for more than the word itself. We pronounce the word "Yeed", the way Yiddish speakers say it. People who use it offensively pronounce it "Yid" and generally have a "fucking" before it and "cunts" after it.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Of course I do... but I fail to see where Spurs fans using the word nigger are using someone's race against them, suggesting something is wrong with them biologically.

Are you saying that hissing isn't racist but using the word nigger in defence is? If everyone stops using the word nigger it won't stop racism or people being offended.

Just thought I'd change Yid to another racial slur and see what you thought your paragarphs read like.

Still if we are using these words in "defence" it's ok, right?

 

[Dr. Filth]

Do you know why the Jewish people became bankers in places like Spain and Poland, and as a result had an awful stereotype attached to them? It's because under Islamic law, Muslims aren't allowed to charge other Muslims interest on loans, and the same was true in Catholicism. Obviously for any sort of modern urbanization to occur, there has to be a financial industry. So the Jewish people were sort of forced into that role.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Surely the pronunciation and actions of the people using the word count for more than the word itself. We pronounce the word "Yeed", the way Yiddish speakers say it. People who use it offensively pronounce it "Yid" and generally have a "fucking" before it and "cunts" after it.

I can't say I've ever heard it said at matches in the yiddish way....but then, what do I know.

 

[Dr. Filth]

Of course I do... but I fail to see where Spurs fans using the word Yid are using someone's race against them, suggesting something is wrong with them biologically.

Are you saying that hissing isn't racist but using the word Yid in defence is? If everyone stops using the word Yid it won't stop racism or people being offended.

This is a terrible argument against stamping out a pocket of racism.

Please elaborate. Where is the pocket of racism you're trying to stamp out and who is it from?

I don't think people are anti-semitic because of the way Spurs fans use the word Yid. If the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea etc. are singing "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz" I'm not just gonna sit down and shut up in case my use of the word Yid in defence may or may not be offensive to a minority that doesn't understand the context behind the way I am using it.

Surely the pronunciation and actions of the people using the word count for more than the word itself. We pronounce the word "Yeed", the way Yiddish speakers say it. People who use it offensively pronounce it "Yid" and generally have a "fucking" before it and "cunts" after it.

We can, and are, arguing whether the word Yid has racist connotations, but to say we shouldn't stop using the word because racism will still persist is silly. That's all I was saying.

 

[HyNdZee]

This is a terrible argument against stamping out a pocket of racism.

Please elaborate. Where is the pocket of racism you're trying to stamp out and who is it from?

I don't think people are anti-semitic because of the way Spurs fans use the word Yid. If the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea etc. are singing "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz" I'm not just gonna sit down and shut up in case my use of the word Yid in defence may or may not be offensive to a minority that doesn't understand the context behind the way I am using it.

Surely the pronunciation and actions of the people using the word count for more than the word itself. We pronounce the word "Yeed", the way Yiddish speakers say it. People who use it offensively pronounce it "Yid" and generally have a "fucking" before it and "cunts" after it.

We can, and are, arguing whether the word Yid has racist connotations, but to say we shouldn't stop using the word because racism will still persist is silly. That's all I was saying.

Actually we're arguing whether it is offensive for Spurs fans to use it or not. It is pretty clear that the word Yid had racist connotations as it was used against us that way in the 60s. But Jewish or non-Jewish people are still split over its offensiveness when Tottenham use it in defence, and whether that defence and reclamation of the word is offensive.

 

[Dr. Filth]

You do realize what I was saying, right?
If the majority of people think it has racist connotations, in the context that we are arguing in aka related to Tottenham,

If everyone stops using the word Yid it won't stop racism or people being offended.

is a terrible argument against stopping using the y word.

 

[tehTrunk]

Of course I do... but I fail to see where Spurs fans using the word Yid are using someone's race against them, suggesting something is wrong with them biologically.

Are you saying that hissing isn't racist but using the word Yid in defence is? If everyone stops using the word Yid it won't stop racism or people being offended.

If people are hissing, they should be dealt with in the same way that someone caught throwing a banana is.

It's not up to a group of largely non-Jewish people to start singing about "Yids" to confront antisemitism.

 

[HyNdZee]

You do realize what I was saying, right?
If the majority of people think it has racist connotations, in the context that we are arguing in aka related to Tottenham,

If everyone stops using the word Yid it won't stop racism or people being offended.

is a terrible argument against stopping using the y word.

Yeah I get it now. I guess my point was that to me, the connotations remain in the 60s. As in, the offensive word Yid has been de-sensitised because we all share the word Yid when it is thrown as an insult now. Obviously people still take offence to the word because of its past meaning, but I try to educate them on why it has a new meaning.

However, I must admit I was uneasy adopting the term as a kid when I didn't know what the fuck it meant. And the explanations given to me that all Spurs fans were Jews etc. is just ridiculous. Seeing parents teach their kids the word without the context makes me a bit uneasy as a kid could clearly repeat it thinking it is synonymous with Spurs when someone else still associated it with the derogation of Jews.

However, I know in my mind, I try to use the word as responsibly as I can and find it synonymous with Tottenham. Like marching down the high street, or singing in general... these aren't acts accepted in general society - only at Tottenham. I find if we start banning words and thinking we can control the morality of people we're on a slippery slope.

I limit my use of the word Yid as best I can to inward Tottenham circles who know I mean no offence. It does upset me if people find when I've used it has been offensive as that was never the intention, quite the opposite.

 

[tehTrunk]

Don't be perturbed by my seemingly holier than thou attitude in this thread by the way, I was at Wembley on Sunday and was singing along with all the "Yid" chants.

My argument is just as much in the interest of finding out for myself where I stand on the whole issue.

 

[HyNdZee]

Of course I do... but I fail to see where Spurs fans using the word Yid are using someone's race against them, suggesting something is wrong with them biologically.

Are you saying that hissing isn't racist but using the word Yid in defence is? If everyone stops using the word Yid it won't stop racism or people being offended.

If people are hissing, they should be dealt with in the same way that someone caught throwing a banana is.

It's not up to a group of largely non-Jewish people to start singing about "Yids" to confront antisemitism.

I never knew the word Yid to segregate Jewish and non-Jewish Spurs fans. If anything it is what I felt united Spurs supporters. Perhaps I've only listened to Jewish extroverts and many feel differently to their actions on match days but to be honest I think the result of this debate has segregated Jews and non-Jews when in reality the offensiveness is split no matter what background.

 

[Flav]

Spurs fans are going to sing it regardless. Most don't care, or don't know, and those that don't know, probably won't care when they find out. Then there are those that know, but still sing it like me.

Context is important, but my overall feeling is that 'Yid' has become as much a word for Tottenham Hotspur fans as it is a slur against Jewish people. In fact if you ask people what a 'Yid' is I reckon at least half will respond about something relating to Spurs. We've been using it for 50 years. To ask the fans to stop is asking them to give up a tradition deep rooted, and we've already been forced to give up too many of these as it is.

Also the whole understanding thing goes both ways. If a Jewish person who doesn't watch football or know the Tottenham fanbase finds Spurs fans singing 'Yid Army' offensive then perhaps they should attempt to better understand us. Also I think it's a fair argument that while the letters Y I D are the same as the racial slur there should in fact be two definitions. When I say 'Yid' I mean Tottenham fan. When racist in the street says 'Yid' he means a Jewish person.

It has additional significance as it's an important word. It's something that the club can never commercialise. I don't believe all this bollocks about THFC PLC giving a shit about the offensive nature of the term. If they could put it on a T shirt and sell it in the club shirt they would.

 

[Blanchflower]

Context is important, but my overall feeling is that 'Yid' has become as much a word for Tottenham Hotspur fans as it is a slur against Jewish people. In fact if you ask people what a 'Yid' is I reckon at least half will respond about something relating to Spurs.

There are also a large group of people that believe all Tottenham fans are Jewish, like they can't be mutually exclusive.

Which I find utterly bizarre.

 

[78Spur]

Also the whole understanding thing goes both ways. If a Jewish person who doesn't watch football or know the Tottenham fanbase finds Spurs fans singing 'Yid Army' offensive then perhaps they should attempt to better understand us. Also I think it's a fair argument that while the letters Y I D are the same as the racial slur there should in fact be two definitions. When I say 'Yid' I mean Tottenham fan. When racist in the street says 'Yid' he means a Jewish person

Is that not akin to the Suarez argument that we should respect his culture because 'negrito' is supposedly an acceptable word in his own country? That didn't cut a lot of ice with me.

 

[S.L.R]

Do you know why the Jewish people became bankers in places like Spain and Poland, and as a result had an awful stereotype attached to them? It's because under Islamic law, Muslims aren't allowed to charge other Muslims interest on loans, and the same was true in Catholicism. Obviously for any sort of modern urbanization to occur, there has to be a financial industry. So the Jewish people were sort of forced into that role.

Yeah I read that. I think I read that equally, a Jew could not charge interest on a loan to a Jew. Very odd really although it's still relevant I suppose, isn't there such a thing as Muslim banking in England, or it was proposed or something...

As well as the above I read Jews tended to retain the knowledge of the old economic order which had collapsed along with the Roman Empire, when the continent was going through a period of mental/cultural stagnation. Apparently later on Jewish people began using decimals when the Christians refused to recognise any accounts using decimals as they were from Arabic numerals. They would only recognise either Latin numerals or numbers written out in words. So the Jews were able to work out long complicated arithmetic by organising sums into columnar format, like you learn to write a simple subtraction at school, one sum on top of the other. They had that advantage over Christians for hundreds of years.