Why is There a Shortage of good English Managers

[yes]

Pay cut huh?

I just found out that Southgate is on £5m a year.

I’d like to change my answer.

If he’s worth £5m then I’ve got to be worth at least £1m.

With players like Kane, Saka, Bellingham, Maddison, Foden, Rice, Walker etc. You could get a homeless guy in off the street to say “alright cunts, just run about a bit” and they’d look better than Southgate’s brand of wank ball.

 

[Airfixx]

Racism isn't as rooted out as we all like to believe it is. There aren't many black managers because their aren't many black coaches. All well and good to say the most important thing in football is results and a club isn't going to let race stop them from hiring a good candidate.

But it's years of opportunity that go into creating a candidate, from coaches/managers at a club mentoring a player on the coaching side of things. Advising even unsuccessful players on becoming coaches and staying in the game. Hiring that guy as your 4th or 5th assistant and letting them learn the ropes.

It's a bottom up issue - if you create a deep pool of minority coaches, the best will rise to the top and become managers.

Same questions apply... WHY isn't there more black coaches.......?

Put ultra-simply; because history has taught them that opportunity will be few and far between.

 

[VirginiaSpur]

The English football mentality is still wrapped up too much in the "proper football" mindset and resistant to new ideas, but it's improving. All you need to look at for that is the next revolution, data analysis, and how disparaged it is by loads in the English game. The 1 club that committed into it full bore was Liverpool, who well outperformed their finances for a brief but very successful run. Before that it was proper nutrition and fitness regimes.

This.

There are still a lot of pwopa Englishmen that act like the game is still their own and that basic shit like formations and tactics are a load of rubbish for foreigners who don't understand the game.

There are still a handful on this site that get agitated if you try to make sense of our formation or mention a double pivot.

 

[Airfixx]

This.

There are still a lot of pwopa Englishmen that act like the game is still their own and that basic shit like formations and tactics are a load of rubbish for foreigners who don't understand the game.

There are still a handful on this site that get agitated if you try to make sense of our formation or mention a double pivot.

Probably another 20 years before the odor of Allardyce, Warnock & co. has been entirely washed out of the culture over here.

 

[Zomb]

This.

There are still a lot of pwopa Englishmen that act like the game is still their own and that basic shit like formations and tactics are a load of rubbish for foreigners who don't understand the game.

There are still a handful on this site that get agitated if you try to make sense of our formation or mention a double pivot.

They aren’t on the payroll of any EPL club, arguably Shef Utd but clubs have moved on from lazy scouting and bang average managers

 

[BernardMatthews]

Yeah..lol. Good joke though it is. You have actually identified what can happen. When ever there is an outlier be he black female Irish English ( in the EPL) they become a standard-barer. So unfortunately if a plumb like Cample is given a chance an the inevitable happens... then the next black coach is blighted by this. I bet Sherwood put Levy of English coaches for a good long while.

Maybe. But how many (young) English coaches get discussed when Spurs need a new manager.

After Ange will an English manager be top of the fans want list? Time will tell……..

But on the other point I do think if you looked back over the past 10 years the amount of black coaches doing the Pro License would have increased. (And there is also the fact the pro license is bloody expensive to do in the UK so is limiting)
Be interesting to see how the next 10 years develops.

More academies and courses for school leavers are starting scholars on coaching courses too.
Sure in time this will have an effect too. Players who don’t make it but want to become great coaches can be more motivated IMO.

Also it’s a problem that in England people without the “connections” often get overlooked. You need to be right place right time - but it can still happen.

 

[Richard Arlison]

It's a bottom up issue - if you create a deep pool of minority coaches, the best will rise to the top and become managers.

Agree with this but..

Racism may not be as rooted out as it used to be but the belief that it's still as prevalent deters more black coaches than actual racism. At least in the last 10 years.

problem is that it takes almost as long to lose the assumption from coaches that they won't get the opportunity because of racism as it does to actually root out the racism.

If I look in my own line of work, I have seen people not be successful in an interview because they fucked up but then assume it was because of racism because they were the only black person in the interview, and whilst that already hindered their learning for the next interview, the belief that it was racism completely paralysed them from applying to future jobs.

In football, no black coach could be blamed for looking at the percentage of ex-players that make it to the top level as coaches and assuming that racism will prevent them from making it and then not even bother to pursue it. Even if racism is 90% less likely to hinder their prospects now.

 

[Richard Arlison]

It's not that good a question. It's because of racism.

It definitely was. No question. The problem is that it's going to take a long time to change the cultural assumption that racism is still the barrier that it was. Especially because there still will be some old cunts in the game that are racists.

 

[Chevy5]

Phil Parkinson. Perfect for a post-Southgate England manager.


black square facebook picture

 

[Paxman]

In the past former players became managers as football was all they knew, with the alternative being a job with a really shit wage.

Now players finish their careers as millionaires and don’t need the stress and hassle of management unless they have a real burning desire to be a manager.

 

[bus-conductor]

It's definitely going to be another generation, if then. The European ban had a very negative effect on English football and the English football mentality, in my decidedly unlearned opinion.

The English football mentality is still wrapped up too much in the "proper football" mindset and resistant to new ideas, but it's improving. All you need to look at for that is the next revolution, data analysis, and how disparaged it is by loads in the English game. The 1 club that committed into it full bore was Liverpool, who well outperformed their finances for a brief but very successful run. Before that it was proper nutrition and fitness regimes.

There were others like Mathew Benham at Brentford (2007) and Tiny Bloom at Brighton (2009) who committed to the data driven approach before Liverpool and in bigger ways (ie not just recruitment but performance and tactical models).

But yeah, the whole reluctance in the English game to embrace innovation, possibly due to something it touched on in the article, the English game prioritised football success as a qualification for coaching over coaching qualification, experience and intellectual qualifications.

The whole structure of English clubs has taken decades to catch up the continental model, where you don't have "managers", you have head coaches and a bunch of other people doing the research, analytics, recruiting, etc.

It's been proven time and time again that being a good footballer, or even being a "footballer" don't necessarily make you a better coach than non good footballers or even actual pro footballers. It's a completely different skill set.

 

[MemphisWill]

In football, no black coach could be blamed for looking at the percentage of ex-players that make it to the top level as coaches and assuming that racism will prevent them from making it and then not even bother to pursue it. Even if racism is 90% less likely to hinder their prospects now.

And the only way to fix this is to aggressively and openly court minority coaches. You have to incentivize clubs hiring minorities for the back bench in order to enlist them in the cause of stamping out the misconception.

 

[MemphisWill]

In the past former players became managers as football was all they knew, with the alternative being a job with a really shit wage.

Now players finish their careers as millionaires and don’t need the stress and hassle of management unless they have a real burning desire to be a manager.

I think you'll see more like Mason in the future (whether he makes the grade or not, eventually, still being up in the air). Players who have been exposed to the top levels of football but didn't get minted but have a mind and love for the game.

I really do hope Mason makes it. Think he needs to move on to a club where he can have a larger role than hanging around until the manager gets sacked so he can the charge of a crisis for a fortnight.

 

[manmountainbutters]

I think you also cause issues by doing it that way too because you might not always be choosing the best coach.

I refuse the believe the best coach can’t black, there has to be something culturally that deters people from doing it. I’d definitely say in the past there were racial prejudices that made decision makers choose the white coach first but these days sports are dominated by analytics and the best coach is the one that hits the right numbers.

I have zero doubts there are black coaches that can hit the right numbers, I’m just really curious about why they aren’t getting discovered

Yes. I wouldn't go down the discrimination route suggested above. Society is busy enough dividing itself without more fuel to the fire. Definitely agree with you though.

Other thing to remember is the number of great elite managers is tiny. Between us, in PL history, we could name maybe a dozen?

 

[Richard Arlison]

And the only way to fix this is to aggressively and openly court minority coaches. You have to incentivize clubs hiring minorities for the back bench in order to enlist them in the cause of stamping out the misconception.

We are on the same page apart from this bit.

Fine to do this for community level, mass participation sports so you have a larger pool.

But Sport is about winning and you ALWAYS want the best coach. I refuse to believe the best coach for elite sports can't be black (or any other ethnicity), especially when there have been so many incredible black players. If I'm honest it feels racist to me to say you are hiring coaches because they are from an ethnic minority and not because they are the best coach. The message you are sending is still a type of racism because you are still saying it's about their racial identity and not their ability.

 

[Distaste for scouse]

We are on the same page apart from this bit.

Fine to do this for community level, mass participation sports so you have a larger pool.

But Sport is about winning and you ALWAYS want the best coach. I refuse to believe the best coach for elite sports can't be black (or any other ethnicity), especially when there have been so many incredible black players. If I'm honest it feels racist to me to say you are hiring coaches because they are from an ethnic minority and not because they are the best coach. The message you are sending is still a type of racism because you are still saying it's about their racial identity and not their ability.

100% sport should be a meritocracy (i.e based on your ability not your skin colour or gender)

I don't want to see discrimination on any level but I also don't want to see people being given a leg up that isn't based on ability.

I was watching the Afcon can't remember which match and both squads were entirely black players and coaching staff but both had a white manager.

I'm pretty sure that African nations aren't discriminating against themselves.

So there must be other elements to this.

 

[manmountainbutters]

100% sport should be a meritocracy (i.e based on your ability not your skin colour or gender)

I don't want to see discrimination on any level but I also don't want to see people being given a leg up that isn't based on ability.

I was watching the Afcon can't remember which match and both squads were entirely black players and coaching staff but both had a white manager.

I'm pretty sure that African nations aren't discriminating against themselves.

So there must be other elements to this.

Exactly.

Research the causes and remove any obstacles, as long as in doing so you don't create discrimination and resentment elsewhere

 

[Matt1882]

Even better question is why are there so many great black players but so few black managers?

This question needs to be expanded on, because it could be for 2 very, very different reasons.

First - are black managers not getting jobs
Second - do black ex players want to be managers?

If we're talking ex England players since 1990? with a decent number of caps
Paul Ince. Paul Parker. Emile Heskey. John Barnes. Ian Wright. Les Ferdinand. Andy Cole. Judas. David James. Rio Ferdinand.

There's quite a lot, I can't go through the entire list, but just going through this, hardly any of them have even tried to be a coach.
I'm pretty sure the same applies to a lot of white ex players btw, I just think there are more white ex players, so proportionally more white coaches.

 

[Matt1882]

Regarding English managers as a whole...

I wonder if the ban from European football stunted our game more than we realised.

The England team spent years playing very dated football from after 1996. It was all "get it in the mixer and run abaaaaaht"
European teams like France and Spain just passed the ball about and watched us chasing shadows. England usually looked good for half an hour to a half of the game. Then hey were blowing out of their arses because most English players lived on a diet of beige food and lacked up to date training as well. Something Wenger started to chance in the PL era.

We might not see a generation of good English managers on a tactical level with the Klopps and Peps of the world until this squad is all retired and try their hands at it.
And only a small selection of them will actually be good enough to succeed.

 

[White Van Jan]

Maybe. But how many (young) English coaches get discussed when Spurs need a new manager.

Potter turned us down, at least that was the gossip.

But yeah, not many at all.

I think it will change quite rapidly over the next few years, due to so many good academies now.

We (England) have far more good young footballers coming through from the youth now, there is so much more money being ploughed into that level now it's inevitable. There will be a bit of a lag, but it will also lead to many more good young coaches and then managers.

I think there will be lot more like Kieran Macguire coming through. Doing a very good job at Ipswich, very well regarded while at Spurs and MUFC.