New Stadium

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Conversations today at work and the stadium came up. Rumour has it the project has entered into claim arguments, and February as a date is being bandied about.

Probably an idea to manage expectations - if we expect to play the whole season at Wembley if we get maybe the last quarter of the season or so then a bonus.

Not what anyone wants to hear but...there it is
 
This whole time i've been thinking that those black panels on the front of the club shop were massive LED screens

Slightly disappointed to find out they aren't, would've been very 2049 :vdvhmm:

Shocked! Gobsmacked and Disillusioned!
I too was sure they were some form of futuristic media/video display that could be customised at will to suit the occasion...

So WTF are they?

Are we opening a funeral home?
 
Conversations today at work and the stadium came up. Rumour has it the project has entered into claim arguments, and February as a date is being bandied about.

Probably an idea to manage expectations - if we expect to play the whole season at Wembley if we get maybe the last quarter of the season or so then a bonus.

Not what anyone wants to hear but...there it is

Before Spurs announced that they were delaying opening the stadium 2 weeks ago, the contractor concerned with 'safety' systems (rumoured to be a Tyco company) would have been aware of a potential claim against it due to the non operating of the safety systems, so that's not news. The only uncertainty at present is how quickly they can find and fix all the 'safety system' problems
 
Before Spurs announced that they were delaying opening the stadium 2 weeks ago, the contractor concerned with 'safety' systems (rumoured to be a Tyco company) would have been aware of a potential claim against it due to the non operating of the safety systems, so that's not news. The only uncertainty at present is how quickly they can find and fix all the 'safety system' problems
I’m referring to claim between THFC and Mace, which is far more troubling. Whichever way it pans out, let’s hope it doesn’t cost the club too much.
 
I’m referring to claim between THFC and Mace, which is far more troubling. Whichever way it pans out, let’s hope it doesn’t cost the club too much.

I assume you are suggesting THFC are having a pop at Mace for not notifying it quick enough that there was a 'safety systems' problem brewing and clearly coming to a head ? Or is there something I've missed ?
 
I assume you are suggesting THFC are having a pop at Mace for not notifying it quick enough that there was a 'safety systems' problem brewing and clearly coming to a head ? Or is there something I've missed ?
No clue as to the detail of the project in terms of what element may have caused an issue (aside from signing up to a programme they were never going to make). I need to be deliberately unspecific here but, safe to say Mace are acting like a company which is pulling up the drawbridges (in the industry, outside of the stadium). In construction companies do this when they think the shit is about to hit to the fan. You’ve posted a lot in this thread so assume you work in the same game. Bids, partnerships, JVs etc all take second place when your flagship project is about to go south.

Perhaps they’re just being cautious, I hope I’m wrong.
 
There's a bit of a selfish reason for me as to why I'm getting somewhat miffed with the stadium delay is that my Dad is pushing 70 years old, and I've an uncle who lives in South Africa who's gonna be 80 next year, they used to go to pretty much every Spurs game together from the mid 70s to the mid 90s (my family left London in 1995 to move to Northern Ireland where my parents are from), and they're fast running out of time to see a Spurs match together at White Hart Lane (regardless of the name of the new stadium) again, so the constant delays are just making that window ever shorter.

It’s out of your (our) hands mate. Sad as it feels, try to not over think such things. No one, irrespective of age, is guaranteed a tomorrow.

Hopefully your dad and uncle get together with you all in another environment and you all have a great time there. Treasure the people. Not the location.

All the very best
 
No clue as to the detail of the project in terms of what element may have caused an issue (aside from signing up to a programme they were never going to make). I need to be deliberately unspecific here but, safe to say Mace are acting like a company which is pulling up the drawbridges (in the industry, outside of the stadium). In construction companies do this when they think the shit is about to hit to the fan. You’ve posted a lot in this thread so assume you work in the same game. Bids, partnerships, JVs etc all take second place when your flagship project is about to go south.

Perhaps they’re just being cautious, I hope I’m wrong.

I don't work in the construction business, nor a lawyer just applying general business knowledge.

Not sure there has ever been published a specific definition of Mace's responsibilities but from what's been published they were to act as if they were' thfc inhouse construction arm' in managing the project whilst all the contractors contracts were directly with thfc and (probably as thfc would not have the expertise) the contractors contracts would generally have been shown to Mace for comment/amendment before signature) and Mace would interalia be responsible for reporting to thfc on project schedulng and progress reporting (and scheduling of course implies 'risk management'),

So thfc probably cannot hold Mace accountable for meeting or not the timetable (that's a contractor risk) but its seems likely they can hold Mace accountable for not telling them that the project is not meeting the project timescales - which assuming the 'safety systems' issue popped up as a major issue without much warning is where the problem between Mace and Spurs will come..

Would that he a reasonable summary (even if not perfect)
 
I don't work in the construction business, nor a lawyer just applying general business knowledge.

Not sure there has ever been published a specific definition of Mace's responsibilities but from what's been published they were to act as if they were' thfc inhouse construction arm' in managing the project whilst all the contractors contracts were directly with thfc and (probably as thfc would not have the expertise) the contractors contracts would generally have been shown to Mace for comment/amendment before signature) and Mace would interalia be responsible for reporting to thfc on project schedulng and progress reporting (and scheduling of course implies 'risk management'),

So thfc probably cannot hold Mace accountable for meeting or not the timetable (that's a contractor risk) but its seems likely they can hold Mace accountable for not telling them that the project is not meeting the project timescales - which assuming the 'safety systems' issue popped up as a major issue without much warning is where the problem between Mace and Spurs will come..

Would that he a reasonable summary (even if not perfect)
Were that the case, that would be a fair interpretation of that particular contractual arrangement. Mace are construction managers however, typically not client side consultants monitoring just schedule etc.
 
Were that the case, that would be a fair interpretation of that particular contractual arrangement. Mace are construction managers however, typically not client side consultants monitoring just schedule etc.

So no role in advising client on delays/potential delays to meet clients timetable ?

Interesting
 
This must be costing us a small fortune, no wonder there wasn't a transfer kitty ;).
Can't say the delay was a surprise, it did seem a tad ambitious to be ready by the time announced. Still, it will be worth it, once we're in... hopefully by Christmas.
 
Please skip if easily bored :rolleyes:

Assuming the build project was under NEC3 terms ( most major construction works are - some are NEC 4 ) then all aspects of the build will be managed by what’s known as a “Service Manager”. There might even be more than one on a project this size.

The Service Manager sits between the contractors (Mace ) and the client side (THFC) and manages the relationship and is critical to the project being delivered on time and within budget requirements.

The key delivery targets will be agreed at commencement, as will the Risk Register, and as the build goes through it’s stages applications for payment are made by the contractor and these are (should be) assessed by the Service Manager. If the key stages targets are met then payments are made. If they are not being met then the project time line changes and the Risk Register is updated, payment could be partly withheld.

And If there is a risk that a very key stage is not going to be met then either side must, due to contractual clauses, issue what is known as an “Early Warning Notice” and the two sides should then meet with the Service Manager to plan how to rectify the notified service defect. In theory nothing comes up last minute or as a shock. That’s only in theory though.

Here, again, the payments can be withheld pending resolutions, especially likely if a defect comes up that was not on the Risk Register. And if severe enough then the whole payment can be withheld.

Now the key point to consider is when the issues became known and what was behind the defect(s) and what the agreed time frame was in regards to resolving the issue agreed to meet ?

Overall I find it extraordinarily unlikely that something so big came out of the blue to shunt the whole project back, I think the safety system is a bit of a smoke screen. If the project is being managed right. Especially so.

None of the actual management process will be in the public domain as it will be “commercial in confidence”. but I would be amazed if Mace are being paid at the moment - as in the Service Manager has withheld payment pending resolution of the problems.

I know very little (nothing even ) about Stadium Safety. But as it’s been suggested the problem is with the Fire Alarm system then i’ll say this confuses me if true it’s the principle problem.

A public operation should have a fire alarm. But also you can ( could ) in theory mitigate fire risk through other measures - for example patrolling, CCTV, Loud hailers, Additional escape routes.


The key principle being that mitigation has been thought through. Now it could be that because it’s a new build construction you can’t migitage to an acceptable level for the initial Fire Safety certificate and this means the ground can’t get a licence in the first place. But critical safety systems seems a bit cryptic.

Not quite the same thing but I have worked in a building with a few thousand people and a wonkey ( non working ) Fire Alarm and the mitigation, Pending fixing, was accepted.

Good night campers. :coys:
 
Please skip if easily bored :rolleyes:

Assuming the build project was under NEC3 terms ( most major construction works are - some are NEC 4 ) then all aspects of the build will be managed by what’s known as a “Service Manager”. There might even be more than one on a project this size.

The Service Manager sits between the contractors (Mace ) and the client side (THFC) and manages the relationship and is critical to the project being delivered on time and within budget requirements.

The key delivery targets will be agreed at commencement, as will the Risk Register, and as the build goes through it’s stages applications for payment are made by the contractor and these are (should be) assessed by the Service Manager. If the key stages targets are met then payments are made. If they are not being met then the project time line changes and the Risk Register is updated, payment could be partly withheld.

And If there is a risk that a very key stage is not going to be met then either side must, due to contractual clauses, issue what is known as an “Early Warning Notice” and the two sides should then meet with the Service Manager to plan how to rectify the notified service defect. In theory nothing comes up last minute or as a shock. That’s only in theory though.

Here, again, the payments can be withheld pending resolutions, especially likely if a defect comes up that was not on the Risk Register. And if severe enough then the whole payment can be withheld.

Now the key point to consider is when the issues became known and what was behind the defect(s) and what the agreed time frame was in regards to resolving the issue agreed to meet ?

Overall I find it extraordinarily unlikely that something so big came out of the blue to shunt the whole project back, I think the safety system is a bit of a smoke screen. If the project is being managed right. Especially so.

None of the actual management process will be in the public domain as it will be “commercial in confidence”. but I would be amazed if Mace are being paid at the moment - as in the Service Manager has withheld payment pending resolution of the problems.

I know very little (nothing even ) about Stadium Safety. But as it’s been suggested the problem is with the Fire Alarm system then i’ll say this confuses me if true it’s the principle problem.

A public operation should have a fire alarm. But also you can ( could ) in theory mitigate fire risk through other measures - for example patrolling, CCTV, Loud hailers, Additional escape routes.


The key principle being that mitigation has been thought through. Now it could be that because it’s a new build construction you can’t migitage to an acceptable level for the initial Fire Safety certificate and this means the ground can’t get a licence in the first place. But critical safety systems seems a bit cryptic.

Not quite the same thing but I have worked in a building with a few thousand people and a wonkey ( non working ) Fire Alarm and the mitigation, Pending fixing, was accepted.

Good night campers. :coys:

Thanks, most informative.

My understanding from THFC press release is that its not a standard construction industry arrangement as there is no 'Prime Contractor'. Instead Mace is 'managing' the contractors who are engaged directly by THFC..

So my understanding is that Mace is in charge of scheduling the various contractors so that the work is done efficiently.

I assume the various contractors are liable to deliver their various work packages, and so if there is are 'safety systems' which do not work as they should then one or more contractors is liable in principle - not Mace as they are not prime contractor.

I had assumed that Mace would be responsible for monitoring progress on the project and keeping 'others' (either the Client directly or 'The Service Manager')) appraised of any issues - including any major failures to supply such as the 'safety systems' or anything failing interim testing. Is that correct ?

Is everything you have written correct for that arrangement ? (forgive me for asking but I'm not in the construction industry)
 
Thanks, most informative.

My understanding from THFC press release is that its not a standard construction industry arrangement as there is no 'Prime Contractor'. Instead Mace is 'managing' the contractors who are engaged directly by THFC..

So my understanding is that Mace is in charge of scheduling the various contractors so that the work is done efficiently.

I assume the various contractors are liable to deliver their various work packages, and so if there is are 'safety systems' which do not work as they should then one or more contractors is liable in principle - not Mace as they are not prime contractor.

I had assumed that Mace would be responsible for monitoring progress on the project and keeping 'others' (either the Client directly or 'The Service Manager')) appraised of any issues - including any major failures to supply such as the 'safety systems' or anything failing interim testing. Is that correct ?

Is everything you have written correct for that arrangement ? (forgive me for asking but I'm not in the construction industry)

I am in wider building management rather than construction projects, but my qualification is in NEC so the principles are the same and I have been managing NEC Service Contracts for some time on a daily basis. So what I say would only be applicable to NEC contracts, keep that in mind, but...

Mace managing the other contractors does not in my view fundamentally alter much. The client is still THFC and the contract is with Mace regardless of how long their subsequent supply chain is. Mace can blame other sub contractors for balls ups, but ultimately it is them that answer to the Client for the balls up. I would have thought they would do so via a “service manager” or equivalent set up.
 
I am in wider building management rather than construction projects, but my qualification is in NEC so the principles are the same and I have been managing NEC Service Contracts for some time on a daily basis. So what I say would only be applicable to NEC contracts, keep that in mind, but...

Mace managing the other contractors does not in my view fundamentally alter much. The client is still THFC and the contract is with Mace regardless of how long their subsequent supply chain is. Mace can blame other sub contractors for balls ups, but ultimately it is them that answer to the Client for the balls up. I would have thought they would do so via a “service manager” or equivalent set up.

There's no 'thanks' or 'Informative' button so I've pressed 'Like'

But I mean a big thanks for the clear response.

If the main problem is 'safety systems' then on a build of this size, I would have thought testing on the early elements installed would have started probably months ago and Mace should have been asking about the results and reporting when it became apparent that test results were not being solved. Likewise if there were any major delays in delivery of any work packages, Mace should know and report it.

So agreed its Mace not 'reporting'; on the project appropriately which is their liability (whilst the contractor is liable for non delivery of the 'system' or 'work package') and I can't see how they can get out of it.
 
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