Levy / ENIC

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Incomplete_usernam said:
Jesus christ, even in his follow up post it was laced with contradictions "To show unconditional love, you have to love everything unconditionally" but the thing is, people can show unconditional love for the club without loving the owners because the owners are NOT the football club, they never have been and never will be, the two things are separate in the minds of the fans.

Also, we don't have the "4th highest net spend since 2018" that is just an absolute lie, one google search would tell you that.


Let's just settle this right now The Outsider The Outsider give me a straightforward yes or no answer.

Can the supporters truly love the football club without being required to love the owners?

Yes or no?
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For the hundredth time YES - but that's not unconditional love is it - if you love something unconditional you love it warts and all.

You can love Spurs and hate ENIC if that works for you, again for the hundredth time having that opinion is perfectly fine, just don't keep telling me 90% agree with you or that I'm not a fan if I disagree, that's bollocks.

I do fight the Levy corner for a variety of reasons, but I would also freely admit he's made some massive cock ups, my opinion is that he has been, and still, is good for our club. If you or anyone else disagrees with my opinion I'm fine with that, just don't expect me to agree with yours either.
 
The Outsider said:
For the hundredth time YES - but that's not unconditional love is it - if you love something unconditional you love it warts and all.

You can love Spurs and hate ENIC if that works for you, again for the hundredth time having that opinion is perfectly fine, just don't tell me 90% agree with you or that I'm not a fan if I disagree, that's bollocks.
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Yes or no, can you claim to love the club unconditionally if you don't love the owners?

I mean, what if we hired a sponsor for the club that turned out to be pro Putin right now? Would we have to love the sponsor to be able to claim to love the club unconditionally?

My point being, just because something is connected to the club by contract does not mean it IS the club.

I think you can love the club unconditionally without loving the owners.
 
Incomplete_usernam said:
Yes or no, can you claim to love the club unconditionally if you don't love the owners?

I mean, what if we hired a sponser for the club that turned out to be pro Putin right now? Would we have to love the sponser to be able to claim to love the club unconditionally?

My point being, just because something is connected to the club by contract does not mean it IS the club.

I think you can love the club unconditionally without loving the owners.
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Read my reply ..... and look up unconditional for your answer if you're still confused.

If you loved the club unconditionally you would have to love any decision the club made, my point being, unconditional is just the wrong word.

"I think you can love the club unconditionally without loving the owners"

So unconditional love with conditions? hmmmmmm not sure about that.
 
Incomplete_usernam said:
Jesus christ, even in his follow up post it was laced with contradictions "To show unconditional love, you have to love everything unconditionally" but the thing is, people can show unconditional love for the club without loving the owners because the owners are NOT the football club, they never have been and never will be, the two things are separate in the minds of the fans.

Also, we don't have the "4th highest net spend since 2018" that is just an absolute lie, one google search would tell you that.


Let's just settle this right now The Outsider The Outsider give me a straightforward yes or no answer.

Can the supporters truly love the football club without being required to love the owners?

Yes or no?

*edit* He has clarified in a follow up post that you shouldn't have to love or hate the owners to love the club so the debate is settled.
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No you don't have to love the owners to love the football club.

I'm interested in seeing your link to who has the highest net spend since 2018..

 
Incomplete_usernam said:
Yes or no, can you claim to love the club unconditionally if you don't love the owners?

I mean, what if we hired a sponsor for the club that turned out to be pro Putin right now? Would we have to love the sponsor to be able to claim to love the club unconditionally?

My point being, just because something is connected to the club by contract does not mean it IS the club.

I think you can love the club unconditionally without loving the owners.
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No argument from me on this.
 
The Outsider said:
Read my reply ..... and look up unconditional for your answer if you're still confused.

If you loved the club unconditionally you would have to love any decision the club made, my point being, unconditional is just the wrong word.

"I think you can love the club unconditionally without loving the owners"

So unconditional love with conditions? hmmmmmm not sure about that.
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It depends on what your definition of "the club" is, some of us don't consider the owners or sponsors "the club" that includes myself but I take your point.
 
Incomplete_usernam said:
It depends on what your definition of "the club" is, some of us don't consider the owners or sponsors "the club" that includes myself but I take your point.
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That's an interesting argument;
What constitutes "the club" ?

For me;

Definitely not the owners.
Not the manager/s
Hardly the players (although an argument could be made for the likes of Perryman, Mabbutt etc)

It's an intangible thing imo.
 
stevee said:
Oh no doubt about that whatsoever.

I've been saying that since the Bale money was wasted.
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See this is the issue in general across these threads, I actually think we all want the best for the club (at least I like to believe that) but things get lost in translation because of differing passionate opinions.

I think the sensible opinion is recognising not everything ENIC and Levy have done has been bad but also being able to see that they are on borrowed time and thin ice because this club has failed on the pitch in terms of success for too long and that ultimately lays at their doorstep.
 
Incomplete_usernam said:
See this is the issue in general across these threads, I actually think we all want the best for the club (at least I like to believe that) but things get lost in translation because of differing passionate opinions.

I think the sensible opinion is recognising not everything ENIC and Levy have done has been bad but also being able to see that they are on borrowed time and thin ice because this club has failed on the pitch in terms of success for too long and that ultimately lays at their doorstep.
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That's fair.

The name calling from both sides is counter productive, it undermines ones view from the start.

The thing that scares me is what type of owners we will get in the future.
There are those that say "anyone would be better", but that is definitely not true.
At least with Levy he hasn't taken money out of the club like Utds owners.

I also believe it is highly unlikely that we'll get someone who will not only buy the club but also invests a shit load of their own money as well.
At least not without it going down as a loan a la Abramovitch.
 
stevee said:
That's fair.

The name calling from both sides is counter productive, it undermines ones view from the start.

The thing that scares me is what type of owners we will get in the future.
There are those that say "anyone would be better", but that is definitely not true.
At least with Levy he hasn't taken money out of the club like Utds owners.

I also believe it is highly unlikely that we'll get someone who will not only buy the club but also invests a shit load of their own money as well.
At least not without it going down as a loan a la Abramovitch.
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They are all fair points, personally I think if Conte isn't backed in the summer and he ends up walking then I think the risk of getting worse owners outweighs the risk of keeping the current ownership with the caveat of, the current ownership can stay if the price of the product is reduced to match what we see on the pitch, therefore lowering expectations.

I don't know what a new "good owner" would look like outside of providing the club with success and trophies on the pitch, how we get there is hard to say, you can't really have trophies without buying them now, that's modern football I guess.

The real question is, is it possible to have a morally good owner and still win trophies? I don't think it is, the only three options I see for this club going forward are...

1) We keep the owners, the club stays where it is, a close to mid-table side that flirts with success but never achieves it whilst lowering prices across the board to match the product the supporters receive

OR

2) The owners remain and change their policies around transfers, essentially looking to buy success in the name of trophies (I don't even know if they have the resources or knowhow to do this.)

OR

3) We get new owners that are only interested in purchasing success, even at a loss, even if they are morally questionable because in modern football that's the only thing that seemingly works now.


Regardless though, I think ENIC are down to their last life to use a videogame analogy, people want to see something change is the overall feeling I get.
 
Incomplete_usernam said:
They are all fair points, personally I think if Conte isn't backed in the summer and he ends up walking then I think the risk of getting worse owners outweighs the risk of keeping the current ownership with the caveat of, the current ownership can stay if the price of the product is reduced to match what we see on the pitch, therefore lowering expectations.

I don't know what a new "good owner" would look like outside of providing the club with success and trophies on the pitch, how we get there is hard to say, you can't really have trophies without buying them now, that's modern football I guess.

The real question is, is it possible to have a morally good owner and still win trophies? I don't think it is, the only three options I see for this club going forward are...

1) We keep the owners, the club stays where it is, a close to mid-table side that flirts with success but never achieves it whilst lowering prices across the board to match the product the supporters receive

OR

2) The owners remain and change their policies around transfers, essentially looking to buy success in the name of trophies (I don't even know if they have the resources or knowhow to do this.)

OR

3) We get new owners that are only interested in purchasing success, even at a loss, even if they are morally questionable because in modern football that's the only thing that seemingly works now.


Regardless though, I think ENIC are down to their last life to use a videogame analogy, people want to see something change is the overall feeling I get.
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This is the first full season in the new stadium so there are no more excuses for not spending in line with our income.

If anyone expects Enic to invest their own money they are not being realistic (Enic have always said the same thing) and will be disappointed.
That said, our spending could and should increase from now.
 
stevee said:
This is the first full season in the new stadium so there are no more excuses for not spending in line with our income.

If anyone expects Enic to invest their own money they are not being realistic (Enic have always said the same thing) and will be disappointed.
That said, our spending could and should increase from now.
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The main thing I want to see is just a sensible transfer policy, our two most recent signings give me hope as they have both been excellent and better than any of the shit we have purchased in recent years.

As long as we recruit sensible players that have good technical ability and a confident mentality (which I think is just as important) then we should start seeing huge improvements, that requires the ownership and DOF to listen to and trust in the manager, which I have hope we might see happen this summer.

If it doesn't then I think that will be the last straw for ENIC and Levy for many people imo.
 
cretinousgoat said:
Bin vote cast
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stevee said:
This is the first full season in the new stadium so there are no more excuses for not spending in line with our income.

If anyone expects Enic to invest their own money they are not being realistic (Enic have always said the same thing) and will be disappointed.
That said, our spending could and should increase from now.
Click to expand...
Agree with both both points but if they aren’t going to invest, get outside investment.

1) Sort naming rights and reinvest it
2) Sell 10% stake and reinvest it
 
stevee said:
This is the first full season in the new stadium so there are no more excuses for not spending in line with our income.

If anyone expects Enic to invest their own money they are not being realistic (Enic have always said the same thing) and will be disappointed.
That said, our spending could and should increase from now.
Click to expand...

A few more non football events held and the lack of CL football becomes less of an issue as well.

Would be good to see 55k plus attendances in the EL league.
Seems a very long time ago we filled 80k Wembley for Gent.

(I didn’t see us win that either. Fucking Gent!!! Cursed I tell you!!)
 
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