Harry Winks

[BernardMatthews]

So me saying that I was fine when they left and am fine with us getting rid of average players means that I do not have double standards when it comes to loyalty. That's what you said, wasn't it?

I only speak for myself. I couldn't really care less what strangers thought about Walker leaving.
Most football fans are over grown babies anyway.

Well I wasn’t speaking to you specifically.

You started speaking to me. I was saying how this thread is an example of the double standards of loyalty shown in football. And by supporters.

For someone who couldn’t care less about strangers thoughts you then cottoned on to my thoughts.

 

[todd1882]

Another example of the double sided loyalty in football.
If he stayed loyal to Spurs and never asked to leave the club how much shit would he get?

Amazed people can ask for loyalty from players, it’s a bizarre thought process when we show them zero loyalty.

Be good to see who is interested in him. I think he can improve still. His game is not built around pace so match experience should serve him well as he ages.

Not everyone asks for loyalty from players. It's rarely ever been and will rarely be there going forward. It's a billion euro business and there is no time to wait for the potential possibility that perhaps if the timing is right and it's high tide and the moon is in jupiter or whatever that Harry will improve. that's purely hope on your part and if he could then he would have by now. He will not, just like Dele.

Players get 5 year contract for the most part and that means decisions have to be made by the end of year 3, new contract or sell. There is a billion pound stadium, covid losses, no CL money, tougher CL qualification, and the need to further rebuild the squad. And beyond that it's in his best interest to be getting games and advancing his career. Like Andros he's probably played 100+ games for his childhood club. That is something of which to be proud and to cherish for him. But he is not good enough going forward.

 

[bus-conductor]

If you told Sissoko to stand in the middle of the pitch and make sure you only ever pass to the nearest player, he'd do a better job of it.

The only passing job Sissoko does better than Winks is the 2 yard hand grenade bunt backwards to the bloke that's just given it to him, which he does a remarkably consistent 20% of his measly 40 passes.

Strangely, in contrast to the bullshit narrative, Winks passes backwards less than all our other CM's, I tiny 7% of his on average 74 passes a game.

 

[Nawh]

But how many tackles , interceptions , Air dual won , Km runned , etc ...
For a Mid Def , thoses attributes are more important. Harry Winks is not the next Pirlo or Gattuso .

 

[Deleted member 15314]

The only passing job Sissoko does better than Winks is the 2 yard hand grenade bunt backwards to the bloke that's just given it to him, which he does a remarkably consistent 20% of his measly 40 passes.

Strangely, in contrast to the bullshit narrative, Winks passes backwards less than all our other CM's, I tiny 7% of his on average 74 passes a game.

Passing is his one "strength", and it's not really much of one when you compare to someone like like Hojbjerg.

Sissoko though... my god I have never seen a worse player on the ball starting so many games for a top team. It boggles the mind.

Ultimately, until we get another midfielder in, Sissoko has more utility than Winks. That's the sad truth.

 

[KaneDomBadBoy]

Passing is his one "strength", and it's not really much of one when you compare to someone like like Hojbjerg.

Sissoko though... my god I have never seen a worse player on the ball starting so many games for a top team. It boggles the mind.

Ultimately, until we get another midfielder in, Sissoko has more utility than Winks. That's the sad truth.

Kane fanboy confirmed. Nothing to see here. Ignore this guy. Shits on every player.

 

[ArcspacE]

Finally! He had to go. And we have to get a better 5th choice midfielder. Shouldnt be that difficult.

Use the money for a HG Sissoko replacement

 

[PowPowspur]

I've never seen the fuss over him. He's a decent squad player at best.

 

[AberdeenYid]

I've never seen the fuss over him. He's a decent squad player at best.

That’s exactly what he is. Having an England international as a fifth choice central midfielder isn’t a bad way to be building a squad. Great strength in depth.

 

[todd1882]

That’s exactly what he is. Having an England international as a fifth choice central midfielder isn’t a bad way to be building a squad. Great strength in depth.

One problem is that he's been a starter, or close to, for the last 2+ seasons. And in that time anyone with a critical mind and some idea of football has recognized his warts as a player and the fact that he's improved in no discernible way. So to classify his potential contribution as 'strength in depth' would be playing fast and loose.

But the bigger problem is that we play with 3 MFers now and were he 5th choice then that would mean he'd be 1 injury away from starting and we'd be back where we were...fitting phrasing as that is where most of his passes go. (Cheap shot but still, come at me bus-conductor )

But beyond that he's not a companion dog FFS. We don't just park him on the bench so we don't have to deal with the emotional loss. Let the kid have a career somewhere else. Maybe he'll flourish like KWP. That would be cool. But for us we'd be carrying him. Simply ask yourself if you'd still want him to stay as '5th choice' were he not from the academy nor HG. When you honestly evaluate that question then you know what must be done.

 

[sudoku]

I've never seen the fuss over him. He's a decent squad player at best.

At least IMO but you say that like it's a bad thing.
Anyway, JM doesn't want him it seems and he knows what he is doing.

 

[AberdeenYid]

One problem is that he's been a starter, or close to, for the last 2+ seasons. And in that time anyone with a critical mind and some idea of football has recognized his warts as a player and the fact that he's improved in no discernible way. So to classify his potential contribution as 'strength in depth' would be playing fast and loose.

But the bigger problem is that we play with 3 MFers now and were he 5th choice then that would mean he'd be 1 injury away from starting and we'd be back where we were...fitting phrasing as that is where most of his passes go. (Cheap shot but still, come at me bus-conductor )

But beyond that he's not a companion dog FFS. We don't just park him on the bench so we don't have to deal with the emotional loss. Let the kid have a career somewhere else. Maybe he'll flourish like KWP. That would be cool. But for us we'd be carrying him. Simply ask yourself if you'd still want him to stay as '5th choice' were he not from the academy nor HG. When you honestly evaluate that question then you know what must be done.

Don’t give a shite if he’s an academy player or not. But I do care that he’s HG. I am concerned about reports that he isn’t happy playing a backup role though.

Yes, we are an injury or two away from him playing regularly, but as a weakest link goes, he’s not that bad. An average player in a great team.

And who replaces him? Someone we could get out of their present club. Someone we could afford. Someone who doesn’t bollocks up our HG ratio. Someone who doesn’t mind being on the bench at best in most games. Can we get someone who ticks all those boxes and is better than Winks? If so, brilliant, get rid. But I don’t think we can.

 

[todd1882]

Don’t give a shite if he’s an academy player or not. But I do care that he’s HG. I am concerned about reports that he isn’t happy playing a backup role though.

TBF I did say 'academy or HG'. It doesn't matter wihich (or both) you care about. It only matters that 1 of these aspects factors in and neither are of the most important concern which is playing ability. HG does matter, I agree, but my point was to divorce the emotional and the ancillary from the objective assessment.

Yes, we are an injury or two away from him playing regularly, but as a weakest link goes, he’s not that bad. An average player in a great team.

I like Winks and had higher hopes for him but that's not panned out and would hate to have him starting. I disagree we are a 'great team' but if we were we would have a better ability to deal with his shortcomings.

And who replaces him? Someone we could get out of their present club. Someone we could afford. Someone who doesn’t bollocks up our HG ratio. Someone who doesn’t mind being on the bench at best in most games. Can we get someone who ticks all those boxes and is better than Winks? If so, brilliant, get rid. But I don’t think we can.

If we can't get 'better than Winks' then we really do have bigger problems. And that's not a cheap shot at him. I'm saying that this would mean we cannot improve from where we are.

This happens often in here. Before folks get to the point of admitting that a player has to go they throw up mental roadblocks to that acceptance. People first need to accept that he is not good enough and that he needs replacing. So typically I am hesitant to answer these other questions before someone comes around that corner. But they were posed in good faith so here goes: A) we do not need to address Winks' replacement with a HG player. The HG player can be for another positionof need or some other roster shenanigans can occur. B) you don't replace an outgoing player deemed not good enough with a player of similar level (ie a squad or bench player) you buy a player better than what you already have starting. This is how you improve. C) Yes we can get someone better than Winks and potentially better than what we have starting for cheap. Our ignorance of the market is not evidence of the absence of better players' existence. Someone better than what we have in most positions moves to another team every window for less than we paid for the player manning our position (looking at you Dave). D) I think I addressed all your questions already so now I'm just improvising.

 

[ArcspacE]

Don’t give a shite if he’s an academy player or not. But I do care that he’s HG. I am concerned about reports that he isn’t happy playing a backup role though.

Yes, we are an injury or two away from him playing regularly, but as a weakest link goes, he’s not that bad. An average player in a great team.

And who replaces him? Someone we could get out of their present club. Someone we could afford. Someone who doesn’t bollocks up our HG ratio. Someone who doesn’t mind being on the bench at best in most games. Can we get someone who ticks all those boxes and is better than Winks? If so, brilliant, get rid. But I don’t think we can.

Skipp will replace this HG status next season - he’s finished here

 

[AberdeenYid]

TBF I did say 'academy or HG'. It doesn't matter wihich (or both) you care about. It only matters that 1 of these aspects factors in and neither are of the most important concern which is playing ability. HG does matter, I agree, but my point was to divorce the emotional and the ancillary from the objective assessment.


I like Winks and had higher hopes for him but that's not panned out and would hate to have him starting. I disagree we are a 'great team' but if we were we would have a better ability to deal with his shortcomings.


If we can't get 'better than Winks' then we really do have bigger problems. And that's not a cheap shot at him. I'm saying that this would mean we cannot improve from where we are.

This happens often in here. Before folks get to the point of admitting that a player has to go they throw up mental roadblocks to that acceptance. People first need to accept that he is not good enough and that he needs replacing. So typically I am hesitant to answer these other questions before someone comes around that corner. But they were posed in good faith so here goes: A) we do not need to address Winks' replacement with a HG player. The HG player can be for another positionof need or some other roster shenanigans can occur. B) you don't replace an outgoing player deemed not good enough with a player of similar level (ie a squad or bench player) you buy a player better than what you already have starting. This is how you improve. C) Yes we can get someone better than Winks and potentially better than what we have starting for cheap. Our ignorance of the market is not evidence of better players existence. Someone better than what we have in most positions moves to another team every window for less than we paid for the player manning our position (looking at you Dave). D) I think I addressed all your questions already so now I'm just improving.

All fair. But the HG issue is huge. I seem to recall you aren’t in the Dele fan club either, so that’s two HGs we need to replace. And the buying better than we have policy is the perfect world, where we all want to be, but doesn’t take into account any of the variables at play.

Let’s say we go balls deep and buy Goretzka, Milinkovic Savic, Locatelli, or someone equally as good. Delightful as any of those players would be, we then have to get a HG backup for another position. Maybe sell Lucas and take in Gray from Leicester. He’d be gettable and probably wouldn’t demand first team football. But now we’ve weakened one area to strengthen another. And we also have one of PEH, Tanguy or GLC throwing their toys out because they aren’t playing. Again, something I don’t give a shite about, as if you want to play, be better and try harder, but it does effect the morale and therefore strength of the squad.

I just don’t see any club out there with a squad entirely bereft of the odd Harry Winks in their ranks. As the 18th, 19th, or 20th member of our squad in quality, he’s not a bad option. First eleven? I’d rather not thanks.

 

[PowPowspur]

At least IMO but you say that like it's a bad thing.
Anyway, JM doesn't want him it seems and he knows what he is doing.

Well he doesn't fit into JM's system, but that that doesn't make anyone a bad player just because they don't.

 

[todd1882]

All fair. But the HG issue is huge. I seem to recall you aren’t in the Dele fan club either, so that’s two HGs we need to replace. And the buying better than we have policy is the perfect world, where we all want to be, but doesn’t take into account any of the variables at play.

Never have been a fan of Dele. Proper attention to the squad would have had a replacement/competition years ago. That Eze looks like a player we should have been looking at and gotten. But yes, we will need more HGs but that problem has been brewing since Walker left and hasn't been addressed by those that do the addressing. But Sessegnon will be coming back and potentially Skipp with handle that. Neither makes me jump for joy.

Let’s say we go balls deep and buy Goretzka, Milinkovic Savic, Locatelli, or someone equally as good. Delightful as any of those players would be, we then have to get a HG backup for another position. Maybe sell Lucas and take in Gray from Leicester. He’d be gettable and probably wouldn’t demand first team football. But now we’ve weakened one area to strengthen another. And we also have one of PEH, Tanguy or GLC throwing their toys out because they aren’t playing. Again, something I don’t give a shite about, as if you want to play, be better and try harder, but it does effect the morale and therefore strength of the squad.

Competition is good for everyone. No competition and you get into Dele's situation where he has been allowed not to improve for years now. Like you said, if you want to play then be better.

You mention 'big' names but I'm not the type that calls for big names. And most people call for big names because that's all they know and they would like to contribute to convos so you get the same nonsense repeated day in day out. A better player is one that is identified as having additional qualities over what we have. They can be a younger player and that would address you point about established starters whinging. But that young player needs to have the actual potential/ceiling beyond the current starter.

for instance, Doherty looks absolute hot garbage but we wasted money on him. Yes, he's HG but would be better off if we kept KWP (whose performances have been at least as good as Doherty) and used that money on Eze? That's 2 HGs right there and us settled at AM.

I just don’t see any club out there with a squad entirely bereft of the odd Harry Winks in their ranks. As the 18th, 19th, or 20th member of our squad in quality, he’s not a bad option. First eleven? I’d rather not thanks.

That may be true but in our instance we have a need for quality MFers to improve us. So he is slotting into a position where we have a need that he is not fulfilling. Currently, if we had to use him to spell Hojberg the we would be left wanting. The same for any position in the MF if he needs to play we are left exposed. Not of the things he does but of the things he most certainly cannot do. Our backline would be exposed were he to be there 'protecting' it.

There were squad machinations to be done to satisfy HG and quality but they were not done. It's always been the way. Thankfully the Everton game lit a fire where a fire needed to be lit. Shame we wasted so much time on the Bale deal. Bread and circus for all. But on the positive side he is HG.

 

[Igula]

I had at least hoped that he would have been an asset in Europa League games but even there he has been ok at best. Against Antwerp he was largely invisible and the best thing you could say about him was he didn't screw anything up.

He left Lo Celso alone in MF to do all the work, perhaps in part because of Jose's tactics but also because even against Antwerp he isn't good enough to beat their press so can't help advance the ball like we need.

With us lacking creative options off the bench or a back-up for PEH, Winks providing us nothing makes these issues even more glaring.

As for who we could get to replace him, while they might not be like for like HG guys like Bowen and Eze both were sold recently for reasonable fees, both are HG and both would improve our team. Cantwell is a guy that would provide more than Harry and is HG as well. He seems to be out of favor with Farke so likely available. I am sure that there are other out there that work as well.

Plus for homegrown issues we have Skipp and Sessegnon possibly coming back next season so they can fill a spot if we replace Winks with a non-HG guy. Dele has barely had an impact so if we bring in a non-HG guy for him we can just put an HG body on the roster and not really lose much.

 

[bus-conductor]

But how many tackles , interceptions , Air dual won , Km runned , etc ...
For a Mid Def , thoses attributes are more important. Harry Winks is not the next Pirlo or Gattuso .

For the record

And here's some more, showing Winks tackles more, tackles more people dribbling at him, presses more - and more successfully than Sissoko.

 

[bus-conductor]

Here's the thing. Even at the academy I wasn't a huge fan of Winks. He was Mr neat and tidy, metronomic, reliable but with a pretty low ceiling compared to people like Onomah who's ceiling was potentially much higher but who came with far more flaws.

In the last couple of years we've bought and integrated/phased in Ndombele and Lo Celso (and Hojbjerg) and Winks has rightly been pushed down the pecking order. But I really don't get the animosity toward the kid. He's done exactly what an academy kid should. Provided a free, HG, squad option who rarely shits the bed, has a lot of good qualities, has filled in and played outside his ideal remit often, and done perfectly OK and we will get a pretty reasonable fee for him.

Having Winks as 4th/5th choice CM is not a problem for any club. I doubt there are many who have better options (all things considered, ability, HG age, etc) but he probably needs to move, more for his own career, not that because he's a problem for us, he isn't.

Skipp can come in and fill the exact same remit, young, HG, decent set of all round skills and will be happy not to play every game for the next couple of years but will come in and do a reliable job as and when called on.

Personally I think both should be ahead of Sissoko, who's only superior in height and body mass, but I would love it if we buy someone like Kessie or Sabitzer, fuck off Sissoko to the glue factory, and keep Skipp as 4th/5th choice