Ange Postecoglou

[kingdawson]

anyone remember when we scored a set piece goal and Ange was pointing at Mason and then proceeded to lavish praise on him post match for the way we attack set pieces.

Now we get criticism because we are unable to defend them and he's telling us

"If I thought fixing defensive set pieces was the answer to us bridging the gap then I'd put all of my time and effort into that. But that's not where we're at."


so in his warped way of thinking attacking set pieces requires us to train and set up in the correct way but defending them doesn't help us "bridge the gap"?

the guy is making it up as he goes along and I'm not drinking the Ange kool aid.

 

[Starks]

I expect inconsistancy and some shitty results and performances. I dont expect a straight line of progress, problem if there is a straight line its heading in the opposite direction. I just cant see what signs of improvement we've seen for months now. We beat the bottom half teams at home, usually after a scare or 2 but other than Villa what was our last good result and performance? City or Newcastle in December?

Poch's first season was brought up but it was just as inconsistent.

We won just 3 of our last 8 league games in his first season. Losing to a Tim Sherwood Aston Villa at home, Stoke City 3-0 and drew with the likes of Burnley, who got relegated that year.

Beat a Chelsea team 5-3. Only to go and lose to Crystal Palace the following week. Lost to Stoke, Newcastle and West Brom at home...

There were plenty of us questioning whether it was going to work out for Pochettino.

Even in his second season. Failed to win any of our opening 4 league games... Knocked out of the League Cup at the first hurdle by playing a weak team in the NLD!

But as that season went on, you realised it was all starting to come together.

He went from conceding 53 goals in his first season to just 35... Whilst, Toby was a big part in that, continuing to play his same way (we played a high line with fucking Fazio on his first season ffs) and the players getting more and more in tune with it and believing what he said was right worked.

And if we take history as a fact and see that Anges teams always perform better in their second seasons, we should be optimistic for next season.

We've seen the blueprint this year. We've seen what works and what doesn't. Summer is the perfect time to get the players in who we KNOW will make the system perform at a better level.

But sure if we're having this very same conversation this time next year, then we can be worried.

 

[Herclueless]

7

Good post.

I am not sure how progress is ever measured, other than finishing higher,, which we will, or by acquiring more points.

Agree that the training ground seems to be yielding very little, which might of course be players not listening to instruction.

I don't think Postecoglou is laid back at all. He is just being him. I don't care too much about the personality, Mourinho and Conte aside, but I do care when about one thing.

Since Christmad it feels that we have to rely on moments of brilliance as opposed to just dominating a game, whoever we are facing.

It's also a fact we don't have one player who is consistently very good. Not one. Whether that is Postecoglou, system or me being unfair I don't know.

Yesterday was always going to lose scars if we lost, but to it's the manner of the goals we conceded that is a very big worry.

5th will see Postecoglou comfortably into next season. Anything less and who knows..

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with 5th place, in isolation.

If we'd had a poor start and then surged up the league to finish 5th, that would be grand.

What's happened though is that we had a storming start (before the squad had had time to fully get to grips with Ange's demands!)

Had an understandable dip in the aftermath of the Chelsea game, then meandered through the remainder of the season hovering around 5th. We only remain there due to that strong start, the reality is that if the season were to continue the chasing pack would catch us and we'd drop down.

That's irrelevant in the immediate term, we'd have to hit the disaster button to drop below 5th prior to the end of the season (though still mathematically possible I think).

So we'll finish 5th. That's fine, I don't care about being in CL next season, I'd be content enough having a good crack at Europa as long as we take it seriously, with the aim of CL qualification, or ideally more than just that, the following year.

Problem is, form carries over. Remember Ramos and 2p8g? We looked pretty good his first season, played some good stuff, battered Woolwich on the way to winning the CC against Chelsea. Then switched off entirely, sleepwalked over the line to finish the season, and sleepwalked straight into the next season. Yes the Keane/Berbatov sales were mitigating factors, but the whole team was dreadful, not like we were playing well and just lacked cutting edge up top.

For an example in the other direction see Leicester, relegation fodder one season, finished strong though and stayed up, carried right on into the next season and didn't stop.

Trajectory matters, and ours is concerning.

 

[Kane's left]

I’d have to check, but Ange’s current run is as bad as Nuno’s and likely ( to be confirmed ) worse than Jose or Conte’s form at any point. Ange seems likely to be given time, but I am not convinced as to why he should be. What we are seeing is actually awful now and very disappointing.

I hate to agree with this, but as you say we've been truly awful. Aimless and devoid of any tactical nous during play on and off the ball. It's been exactly like watching relegation fodder who are already going down. I'm as baffled as anyone else as to why we've essentially nose dived since the start of the season. I'm worried that Ange at this rate might get the chop before even the new season starts, we've been that bad....

 

[rusty]

Poch's first season was brought up but it was just as inconsistent.

We won just 3 of our last 8 league games in his first season. Losing to a Tim Sherwood Aston Villa at home, Stoke City 3-0 and drew with the likes of Burnley, who got relegated that year.

Beat a Chelsea team 5-3. Only to go and lose to Crystal Palace the following week. Lost to Stoke, Newcastle and West Brom at home...

There were plenty of us questioning whether it was going to work out for Pochettino.

Even in his second season. Failed to win any of our opening 4 league games... Knocked out of the League Cup at the first hurdle by playing a weak team in the NLD!

But as that season went on, you realised it was all starting to come together.

He went from conceding 53 goals in his first season to just 35... Whilst, Toby was a big part in that, continuing to play his same way (we played a high line with fucking Fazio on his first season ffs) and the players getting more and more in tune with it and believing what he said was right worked.

And if we take history as a fact and see that Anges teams always perform better in their second seasons, we should be optimistic for next season.

We've seen the blueprint this year. We've seen what works and what doesn't. Summer is the perfect time to get the players in who we KNOW will make the system perform at a better level.

But sure if we're having this very same conversation this time next year, then we can be worried.

In pre-season most of the training time is spent on getting players fit and up to speed, we have had NO midweek football so lots of time to practice defending/attacking set pieces we lost yesterday to 2 soft set piece goals and the manager thinks its not important

 

[Herclueless]

anyone remember when we scored a set piece goal and Ange was pointing at Mason and then proceeded to lavish praise on him post match for the way we attack set pieces.

Now we get criticism because we are unable to defend them and he's telling us

"If I thought fixing defensive set pieces was the answer to us bridging the gap then I'd put all of my time and effort into that. But that's not where we're at."


so in his warped way of thinking attacking set pieces requires us to train and set up in the correct way but defending them doesn't help us "bridge the gap"?

the guy is making it up as he goes along and I'm not drinking the Ange kool aid.

Maybe he thinks training set pieces would distract the lads from winning those all important possession stats??

 

[Tomo]

What concerns me most is that we're getting worse. If a rebuild is working you expect to be a bit dodgy at first, then an improvement in aspects of play but still inconsistant, then more consistancy as the players buy in to what you're doing. Bournemouth currently a good example or Pochs first season here. Our season has been the complete opposite, very good to start off then decent under difficult circumstances and now piss poor. Thats really not showing great long term signs.

I would agree with that but not so much for yesterday. On the balance of play we should have gotten at least a draw, we lost due to naivety at set pieces not because of our general play. The Newcastle and Fulham games were more alarming. Yesterday the difference was Arse being better at being ruthless/sneaky, over the 90 mins I would say we played the better football.

 

[kingdawson]

Maybe he thinks training set pieces would distract the lads from winning those all important possession stats??

probably tbh mate.

He's a hypocrite that spouts nonsense to deflect from the criticism he is getting.

 

[Sir Archibald Crooks]

Poch's first season was brought up but it was just as inconsistent.

We won just 3 of our last 8 league games in his first season. Losing to a Tim Sherwood Aston Villa at home, Stoke City 3-0 and drew with the likes of Burnley, who got relegated that year.

Beat a Chelsea team 5-3. Only to go and lose to Crystal Palace the following week. Lost to Stoke, Newcastle and West Brom at home...

There were plenty of us questioning whether it was going to work out for Pochettino.

Even in his second season. Failed to win any of our opening 4 league games... Knocked out of the League Cup at the first hurdle by playing a weak team in the NLD!

But as that season went on, you realised it was all starting to come together.

He went from conceding 53 goals in his first season to just 35... Whilst, Toby was a big part in that, continuing to play his same way (we played a high line with fucking Fazio on his first season ffs) and the players getting more and more in tune with it and believing what he said was right worked.

And if we take history as a fact and see that Anges teams always perform better in their second seasons, we should be optimistic for next season.

We've seen the blueprint this year. We've seen what works and what doesn't. Summer is the perfect time to get the players in who we KNOW will make the system perform at a better level.

But sure if we're having this very same conversation this time next year, then we can be worried.

True, Poch was more poor start, then a good middle and an inconsistant last third and it all came together with that 4-1 win over City end of September 2015 but i still think momentum matters. If you take finishing 5th completely in isolation its ok. He isnt getting sacked this summer and nor should he but i just dont think we've seen any signs in over 4 months now that anything is improving. Given the amount of free time between games its concerning. We need to see a massive improvement by October next season

 

[Starks]

Thought of this as soon as you said it.

Ultimately we all feel what we feel, but progression is never linear (neither is failure).

Interesting.

Guardiola: 2 PPG
Klopp: 1.81 PPG
Arteta: 1.46 PPG

 

[WinterWarrior]

Was a genuine good start to the season but it really feels like other teams adjusted to our style of play quite quickly and we've never hit a sustained period of form since that point. There has simply got to be more, it can not continue like this and there must be a further evolution or else he'll be gone before Christmas.

 

[Shadydan]

anyone remember when we scored a set piece goal and Ange was pointing at Mason and then proceeded to lavish praise on him post match for the way we attack set pieces.

Now we get criticism because we are unable to defend them and he's telling us

"If I thought fixing defensive set pieces was the answer to us bridging the gap then I'd put all of my time and effort into that. But that's not where we're at."


so in his warped way of thinking attacking set pieces requires us to train and set up in the correct way but defending them doesn't help us "bridge the gap"?

the guy is making it up as he goes along and I'm not drinking the Ange kool aid.

I think he's bluffing but I don't think his mantra is throwing people under the bus, if he said that set pieces are a weakness then it makes him and his coaching staff look weak and incompetent, he'a always aired on the positive side during his interviews and been more of a glass half full person.

That's how I see it anyway because there is absolutely no way that any half competent coach goes into next season without addressing our issues on set pieces.

 

[John Thomas]

An old joke for the Doomers,

How do you tell that a plane load of Poms has landed in Australia?

The engines stop, but the whining goes on and on and..............

You and the rest of the superior fans every time we get our pants pulled down by one of our rivals

Whoop whoop!


As much passion as a bunch of corpses.......Or Ange Postecogolou stood on the touchline. Take your pick

 

[Starks]

True, Poch was more poor start, then a good middle and an inconsistant last third and it all came together with that 4-1 win over City end of September 2015 but i still think momentum matters. If you take finishing 5th completely in isolation its ok. He isnt getting sacked this summer and nor should he but i just dont think we've seen any signs in over 4 months now that anything is improving. Given the amount of free time between games its concerning. We need to see a massive improvement by October next season

No doubt. And that City game was 14 months and three transfer windows after he was appointed.

I think the more the season has gone on its simply been clearer and clearer that the squad we have simply isn't good enough. Especially in offence.

Teams know it. There's no fear factor. They don't sit back against us because they're afraid, they sit back because they know that our forward players aren't technically gifted enough to slice them open if they stay compact.

We need great technical players for the system to work. We put our defence under pressure in games because our attack aren't good enough at a) creating chances for ourselves and b) aren't good enough on the ball to keep it.

The likes of Eze, Williams etc would bring that to our team. We also need a striker who can hold it up well but also be a menace.

I said before the Woolwich game that if Son started up top, we'd struggle offensively because he'd just get bullied by Gabriel and Saliba and he did. We looked alot better with Richarlison up there. But we must do better.

Summer is big. Whether or not we achieve what we want is another thing. You know exactly what history tells us.

 

[Richard Arlison]

People have somehow convinced themselves that "time" will magically transform anyone into Pep if you give it long enough...

No they haven't.

They are saying that nobody can become Pep without time to build something and it will look and feel ugly during the time they build.

You just misunderstood what they are saying.

 

[Brian Fantana]

Poch's first season was brought up but it was just as inconsistent.

We won just 3 of our last 8 league games in his first season. Losing to a Tim Sherwood Aston Villa at home, Stoke City 3-0 and drew with the likes of Burnley, who got relegated that year.

Beat a Chelsea team 5-3. Only to go and lose to Crystal Palace the following week. Lost to Stoke, Newcastle and West Brom at home...

There were plenty of us questioning whether it was going to work out for Pochettino.

Even in his second season. Failed to win any of our opening 4 league games... Knocked out of the League Cup at the first hurdle by playing a weak team in the NLD!

But as that season went on, you realised it was all starting to come together.

He went from conceding 53 goals in his first season to just 35... Whilst, Toby was a big part in that, continuing to play his same way (we played a high line with fucking Fazio on his first season ffs) and the players getting more and more in tune with it and believing what he said was right worked.

And if we take history as a fact and see that Anges teams always perform better in their second seasons, we should be optimistic for next season.

We've seen the blueprint this year. We've seen what works and what doesn't. Summer is the perfect time to get the players in who we KNOW will make the system perform at a better level.

But sure if we're having this very same conversation this time next year, then we can be worried.

But you’re forgetting one key thing. This is Spurs. The only club where Mourinho hasnt won a trophy, where we expect the manager to operate with one hand tied behind his back in terms of transfers. Plus it’s a much harder league. As with Conte, we won’t give him the level of players to make his team a success. If he had Man City‘s players I’m sure he’d thrive but with us I’d give it a 25% chance at best for him to replicate what he’s done at other clubs. What’s much more likely is that he falls out with Levy and is gone by this time next year.

 

[Brian Fantana]

What concerns me most is that we're getting worse. If a rebuild is working you expect to be a bit dodgy at first, then an improvement in aspects of play but still inconsistant, then more consistancy as the players buy in to what you're doing. Bournemouth currently a good example or Pochs first season here. Our season has been the complete opposite, very good to start off then decent under difficult circumstances and now piss poor. Thats really not showing great long term signs.

I actually thought we defended much better yesterday than we have for months. I didn’t see them scoring apart from at set pieces. The first half did go pretty much how I expected but that wasn’t due to how I thought they’d run us ragged in defence and they didn’t.

 

[erlee]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0H4u4vjoZs

 

[Hotspurpaul]

And 1 point from 9 at home against our 3 most hated and closest rivals its absolutely disgraceful.

Most hated rivals?.....Spammers, Chavs and Woolwich you mean??......um, where did we get the home point?....we lost all 3!...........

 

[Notabadsquad]

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with 5th place, in isolation.

If we'd had a poor start and then surged up the league to finish 5th, that would be grand.

What's happened though is that we had a storming start (before the squad had had time to fully get to grips with Ange's demands!)

Had an understandable dip in the aftermath of the Chelsea game, then meandered through the remainder of the season hovering around 5th. We only remain there due to that strong start, the reality is that if the season were to continue the chasing pack would catch us and we'd drop down.

That's irrelevant in the immediate term, we'd have to hit the disaster button to drop below 5th prior to the end of the season (though still mathematically possible I think).

So we'll finish 5th. That's fine, I don't care about being in CL next season, I'd be content enough having a good crack at Europa as long as we take it seriously, with the aim of CL qualification, or ideally more than just that, the following year.

Problem is, form carries over. Remember Ramos and 2p8g? We looked pretty good his first season, played some good stuff, battered Woolwich on the way to winning the CC against Chelsea. Then switched off entirely, sleepwalked over the line to finish the season, and sleepwalked straight into the next season. Yes the Keane/Berbatov sales were mitigating factors, but the whole team was dreadful, not like we were playing well and just lacked cutting edge up top.

For an example in the other direction see Leicester, relegation fodder one season, finished strong though and stayed up, carried right on into the next season and didn't stop.

Trajectory matters, and ours is concerning.

Great post. Agree emphatically but do think much or most of the concern is addressed if we get a striker (or 2) and a quality central midfielder.

We can only play one way due to personnel, and whilst I'm with you in your analysis, I think an issue we have is that of limited optiom in the front position.

See for example how much better we looked when Richarlisom (not the answer) came on.

But yes, trajectory matters, which in part was why I was pretty sure we would lose yesterday.

5th however is 5th, if we get it.