Yid no more

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Well PGY we're never going to agree, I think the chants of Yids etc are false, provocative and counter productive, and some people see them as racist too, though I wouldn't go that far.

I spent the first twenty years of going to the Lane and longer than that following them through the press and the occasional TV game, and there were no shouts and chants of Yids then. We managed perfectly well without them, in fact the atmosphere was a lot better in those day than it is in Poison Hart Lane these days.
Where we get lots of negativity interspersed with these horrible Yid chants.

I've stayed away from this thread so far. I felt I said most of what I could on this issue in these threads..

http://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/yid-chanting.1944/

http://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/yid-chanting-part-2-new-poll.1955/page-6#post-66352

I'm Jewish on my mother's side. I consider myself an ethnic Jew rather than a religious one. My maternal grandfather and his parents came to the UK before WWII. Other family left behind ended up the Nazi death camps. Back then Jews were seen by many British gentiles as an undesirable immigrant class, much the same was as many immigrant groups today are unfairly regarded as such in an era where immigration is a hot topic. Yid was a frequently used slur during the 20s to 60s, and, to a lesser degree, thereafter. As such my other was brought up to regard it as a slur, and, subsequently so was I. At 35, perhaps I am the last connection to that generation of Jews as I find that Jews in their mid twenties or younger are predominantly those who do not have a problem with Yid chanting. It's akin to young blacks who use "nigger" as a friendly label. Their use of it may not be with the intent to offend their friend, but should that be a good enough reason for older blacks, who don't like it, to have to tolerate it? The fact is that there are still plenty of Jews, and we are talking thousands, not one or two, and non-Jews alike, who still regard it as a racial slur. By using the word the capacity exists to cause pain and make people uncomfortable.

Hell, I've been going to the Lane for 17 years and there not a match gone by where it doesn't make my feel uncomfortable. It makes my feel uncomfortbale for three reasons. Firstly for the obvious reason of it being a racial slur, secondly because I feel that through my silent toleration of it and continued attendance at WHL further legitimises it, and lastly, conversely, that I am not being included in the full fan experience because of my reluctance to chant the word "yid".

I also agree with the other debate in this thread, namely the club's actual link to Judaism. Historically our Jewish support is no more or less than Woolwich's. Levy and Sugar aside, there hasn't been a huge host of prominant Jews in the club's history, the club wasn't founded by Jews and when the club was founded Tottenham was not an area for immigrant communities, but rather was a suburban village for the afluent. The idea that the club has some sort of grand Jewish heritage is, frankly, nonsense. Little snippets of history, such as the day in 1935 when the Swastika flew over White Hart Lane despite Jews being systematically attacked in Nazi Germany at the time, are conveniently ignored over this fabled Jewish link. But how many fans who robustly tell us that the are showing solidarity with the Jews can actually tell us what the link is, beyond the fact that North London historically had Jewish residents, hence Jews being fans of Spurs and Woolwich? There is no other link.

Ultimately, while a sizeable chunk of Jews (and non-Jews) still find it an offensive racial slur then that is what it remains. People can blab on about not "intending" to be racist, but that doesn't stop those who consider it such being made to feel uncomfortable. The notion that the word has been reclaimed is also total bullshit. Non Jewish fans showing solidarity with us Red Sea pedestrians, eh? How nice. Fact is that if there were no Jews left in the UK tomorrow they likely wouldn't care a shit. Not going to impact their lives in any way.

The ultimate truth of the Yid debate is that many fans are used to singing it. They regard it as being part of what it is to be a Spurs fan in much the same way as the other hallmarks of the club support. It gives them a sense of identity and belonging, and because of that they do not want to entertain the notion of it being offensive it is it, quite literally, an inconvenient truth. Take it away and the sense of belonging is reduced. Far easier to bury one's head in the sand to it and offer stock excuses when challenged.
 
I get the sense that you imagine the situation to be something like this: a bunch of beered-up, bellicose Brits are in a pub on the Continent, and they take to shouting things like "Yid Army!" (thereby underscoring the parallel you made in a prev. response to me where you said it's like Canadians going to Europe and chanting, "USA!"). As these Brits are engaging in this behaviour, a band of anti-Semites happens to walk down the street at the same time. This band of anti-Semites is rather smart, since, despite being French, they understand the chant "Yids!" (which features 0 French words), and decide they're in the presence of Jews. They subsequently beat up the Spurs fans.

Anti-Semites know Ajax is a "Jewish club" (even though it isn't true). And they know that Spurs are a "Jewish club" (even though it isn't true). And should anti-Semites attack Spurs fans abroad, it's not because of the chanting above, but, rather, because it's a pre-meditated move on the part of the thugs to hunt down the "Jewish supporters" and rough them up. In that case, it doesn't matter what Ajax fans chant (and it's "Joden, Joden", anyway), because the anti-Semites, being anti-Semites, will attack even peaceful "Jews" who keep themselves to themselves or even people they think are Jews who actually aren't.
Why do you suppose Spurs are regarded as "a Jewish club" and not Woolwich? Both had Jewish support over the years in equal measure. I still know plenty of Woolwich fans who are Jewish. So why aren't they regaded as the "Jewish club"?

To me the difference is that Spurs fans over the years have help to maintain and promote the inaccurate notion that the club support is still predominantly Jewish through, mainly, the yid chanting, to the point where the idea festers throughout Europe that White Hart Lane is about as Jewish as you get get outside of Tel Aviv. I think it would be foolhardy not to entertain the notion that through the continued use of the Y word this label of Spurs fan as Jews has been kept alive, and that's what leads to pre-meditated attacks.

So, while it may not be true that fans are targetted for shouting "Yid Army" on the continent, and that attacks are pre-meditated, I nonetheless think that it would be disingenuous to promote the idea that the starting point for any view of THFC as being Jewish is somehow not the fan perpetuated notion that we are a Jewish club. If Woolwich fans had made such a big deal over the years of being "the Jewish club" then perhaps they would also be targets.

The way I see it, saying "it doesn't happens to Ajax fans" doesn't mean, by default, that the chanting of yid army has no contributing factor to these attacks in terms of it's festering of the Jewish identity.
 
I think it would be foolhardy not to entertain the notion that through the continued use of the Y word this label of Spurs fan as Jews has been kept alive, and that's what leads to pre-meditated attacks.
I had been expecting greavesy to get to making this point, since I think the answer is rather clear, at least from an anti-Semitic perspective: toning down the identification would be construed as a form of "keeping your head down", like not wearing colours to Upton Park. I'm not sure that would dissolve the premeditation, but maybe I give anti-Semitic thugs too much credit.

As for the historical questions (why us and not Woolwich), I have no idea, nor do I think them pertinent regarding the extremely specific cases that prompted my getting involved in this thread. If you just jumped in, I took specific issue with two points: wookied's assertion that the attacks in Europe were somehow related to comments coming out of the SBL and greavesy's decision to stop using the word only now that our fans are getting attacked in Europe. In both cases I found the causal links perplexing and worth comment. Otherwise, my take on the issue is basically identical with yours, save the biographical detail of my being a gentile.
 
If you asked all the kids at the game (say, 16 and under) what a Yid was, what do you think their response would be?

While I agree with Smoked Salmon in that yes, some people will inherently find it offensive for obvious reasons, I also think that as time goes by the word is used less and less in this derogatory way, and as such will not be regarded as offensively as it is today in 10-20 years.

I'd hazard a guess that there would be a higher percentage of people over 30 who find this offensive, as they have heard stories from their own families regarding its usage as an insult.

The people that use it the most are people who have never experienced its usage in this way, and obviously arent remotely qualified to justify its continued usage.

I do sing it, but can also see how people could be offended by it..... I'd never tell someone that they have no right to be offended by it, because it's not my place to do so.

tl;dr fuck you guys.
 
If you asked all the kids at the game (say, 16 and under) what a Yid was, what do you think their response would be?

While I agree with Smoked Salmon in that yes, some people will inherently find it offensive for obvious reasons, I also think that as time goes by the word is used less and less in this derogatory way, and as such will not be regarded as offensively as it is today in 10-20 years.

I'd hazard a guess that there would be a higher percentage of people over 30 who find this offensive, as they have heard stories from their own families regarding its usage as an insult.

The people that use it the most are people who have never experienced its usage in this way, and obviously arent remotely qualified to justify its continued usage.

I do sing it, but can also see how people could be offended by it..... I'd never tell someone that they have no right to be offended by it, because it's not my place to do so.

tl;dr fuck you guys.

That's a really interesting point, as it's precisely those same 30+ age group of fans (with whom I am of that number) that have actually had it hurled at them at a football ground as a term of insult. Does that give them a 'right' to try and reclaim it, or even more reason NOT to sing it, as they were made aware of it's original meaning?

I imagine there are probably plenty of younger Spurs fans who - unless they'd been to certain away grounds - then the first time they were even made aware of the word was to hear it being used POSITIVELY, by OUR fans!
I guess that's another debate, as to whether, if the first time you hear a word, it's in a different context to the one it was originally intended, does that word's definition change for you personally...?

It's like seeing someone who normally wears glasses, without them, you don't recognise them!
OK, it's nothing like that, but you know what I mean!
 
Well PGY we're never going to agree, I think the chants of Yids etc are false, provocative and counter productive, and some people see them as racist too, though I wouldn't go that far.

I spent the first twenty years of going to the Lane and longer than that following them through the press and the occasional TV game, and there were no shouts and chants of Yids then. We managed perfectly well without them, in fact the atmosphere was a lot better in those day than it is in Poison Hart Lane these days.
Where we get lots of negativity interspersed with these horrible Yid chants.

Although I will willingly agree there was a stack of moany negative Spurs in the 60s 70s and 80s too, though it was easier to avoid them in the days of the terraces where you could move around easier to the more positive elements.

Incidentally I praise the positivity of the 1882 movement, though I dare say they do all the 'yid stuff' too.

Yes, time to agree to disagree I think, I'm not going to try and counter your points again. Thanks for an interesting argument though.

I agree about moany negative Spurs fans. We're third in the league with the best team I've seen in my lifetime and you still hear the occasional moan! We have some brilliant supporters as well though, especially away from home. The thing about the atmosphere getting worse is clearly a nationwide trend and not specific to Spurs.
 
Fair enough PGY - Good comments, and of course we have some great fans, and yes the decline in atmosphere is a nationwide thing.

There's some upsides to the all seaters, but boy are there downsides too.
 
Cheers for sharing that 8cole. I've known stacks of Spurs fans over the 50+ years, and without doubt more are right wing than left wing, despite what some on here would have us believe.

These days as I've got older and so have my friends both old and new, there's a vast majority of right wing over left wing, but that doubtless reflects my age group.

I agree, through my anecdotal experience, there's more right-wing than left-wing fans (I wouldn't say a vast majority though, but as you said that reflects your age group). However, there's a difference between being right-wing and supporting the NF. Like I said before, I think that 99.99% of Spurs fans are anti-fascist.

As a left-winger myself. I'm interested in this issue. I'd say there are more right-wing fans because
(a) the average age of football fans who go is pretty old
(b) due to the history of the game rooted in the working classes, and the fact that it is so expensive, a lot of fans tend to be people from working-class backgrounds who've 'made good' e.g. through starting their own successful business. These people tend to be right-wing as they feel they've benefited from capitalism and believe from personal experience that we have a functioning meritocracy.
(c) we live in a pretty right-wing country generally, and a lot of working class British people are right wing, even those who poor.

Even as a socialist, it doesn't bother me at all that we have some right-wing fans as long as we don't have fascist fans. Out of the forums I post on this one is the most left, probably because it has a lot of younger fans.
 
As a side note I'd say that all the London teams will have a lot of centre-right fans, as these trends are common to all football fans, though naturally I'd imagine the Northern teams to be more left, especially Liverpool, Everton, Sunderland and Newcastle. I'd say Spurs and Woolwich are the most left-wing fanbases in the capital.
 
That's a really interesting point, as it's precisely those same 30+ age group of fans (with whom I am of that number) that have actually had it hurled at them at a football ground as a term of insult. Does that give them a 'right' to try and reclaim it, or even more reason NOT to sing it, as they were made aware of it's original meaning?

I imagine there are probably plenty of younger Spurs fans who - unless they'd been to certain away grounds - then the first time they were even made aware of the word was to hear it being used POSITIVELY, by OUR fans!
I guess that's another debate, as to whether, if the first time you hear a word, it's in a different context to the one it was originally intended, does that word's definition change for you personally...?

It's like seeing someone who normally wears glasses, without them, you don't recognise them!
OK, it's nothing like that, but you know what I mean!
I would be really interested to hear the rational behind a non-Jew having the "right" to "reclaim" the word. Since when was it their's in the first place?
 
I would be really interested to hear the rational behind a non-Jew having the "right" to "reclaim" the word. Since when was it their's in the first place?

I think for us Jewish Spurs fans, the word is ours to 'reclaim' if we see fit to do so...

Whereas the non-Jewish Spurs fans - and let's not forget they are in the majority - have the option to stand by their Jewish brothers (and Sisters) and show their solidarity against a widespread loathing of ANYTHING associated with Jews... and if that just so happens to be directed against the football club they have supported all their lives, then why the hell don't they have the right to stand up for it, in whatever manner they see fit?

I'd rather that, than Spurs fans turning on eachother simply because of their religion.... If you think about it, half the people inside the ground are probably Atheists, until there's a last minute penalty, then we're ALL praying to someone!!!!
 
I'd imagine that Woolwich never associated themselves with Jews because they were never called yids by other fans. If they were then I've never heard about it, and I'd imagine it was on a much lesser scale than Spurs. Perhaps because of the proximity of Stamford Hill, fascists from other teams always thought of Spurs as having more Jewish fans (perhaps erroneously). Or perhaps we do actually have more Jewish fans than Woolwich, or a larger proportion of Jewish fans...I suppose Woolwich probably have more (at least these days) simply because they have a lot more fans than us in general.
 
I've stayed away from this thread so far. I felt I said most of what I could on this issue in these threads..

http://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/yid-chanting.1944/

http://www.thefightingcock.co.uk/forum/threads/yid-chanting-part-2-new-poll.1955/page-6#post-66352

I'm Jewish on my mother's side. I consider myself an ethnic Jew rather than a religious one. My maternal grandfather and his parents came to the UK before WWII. Other family left behind ended up the Nazi death camps. Back then Jews were seen by many British gentiles as an undesirable immigrant class, much the same was as many immigrant groups today are unfairly regarded as such in an era where immigration is a hot topic. Yid was a frequently used slur during the 20s to 60s, and, to a lesser degree, thereafter. As such my other was brought up to regard it as a slur, and, subsequently so was I. At 35, perhaps I am the last connection to that generation of Jews as I find that Jews in their mid twenties or younger are predominantly those who do not have a problem with Yid chanting. It's akin to young blacks who use "nigger" as a friendly label. Their use of it may not be with the intent to offend their friend, but should that be a good enough reason for older blacks, who don't like it, to have to tolerate it? The fact is that there are still plenty of Jews, and we are talking thousands, not one or two, and non-Jews alike, who still regard it as a racial slur. By using the word the capacity exists to cause pain and make people uncomfortable.

Hell, I've been going to the Lane for 17 years and there not a match gone by where it doesn't make my feel uncomfortable. It makes my feel uncomfortbale for three reasons. Firstly for the obvious reason of it being a racial slur, secondly because I feel that through my silent toleration of it and continued attendance at WHL further legitimises it, and lastly, conversely, that I am not being included in the full fan experience because of my reluctance to chant the word "yid".

I also agree with the other debate in this thread, namely the club's actual link to Judaism. Historically our Jewish support is no more or less than Woolwich's. Levy and Sugar aside, there hasn't been a huge host of prominant Jews in the club's history, the club wasn't founded by Jews and when the club was founded Tottenham was not an area for immigrant communities, but rather was a suburban village for the afluent. The idea that the club has some sort of grand Jewish heritage is, frankly, nonsense. Little snippets of history, such as the day in 1935 when the Swastika flew over White Hart Lane despite Jews being systematically attacked in Nazi Germany at the time, are conveniently ignored over this fabled Jewish link. But how many fans who robustly tell us that the are showing solidarity with the Jews can actually tell us what the link is, beyond the fact that North London historically had Jewish residents, hence Jews being fans of Spurs and Woolwich? There is no other link.

Ultimately, while a sizeable chunk of Jews (and non-Jews) still find it an offensive racial slur then that is what it remains. People can blab on about not "intending" to be racist, but that doesn't stop those who consider it such being made to feel uncomfortable. The notion that the word has been reclaimed is also total bullshit. Non Jewish fans showing solidarity with us Red Sea pedestrians, eh? How nice. Fact is that if there were no Jews left in the UK tomorrow they likely wouldn't care a shit. Not going to impact their lives in any way.

The ultimate truth of the Yid debate is that many fans are used to singing it. They regard it as being part of what it is to be a Spurs fan in much the same way as the other hallmarks of the club support. It gives them a sense of identity and belonging, and because of that they do not want to entertain the notion of it being offensive it is it, quite literally, an inconvenient truth. Take it away and the sense of belonging is reduced. Far easier to bury one's head in the sand to it and offer stock excuses when challenged.

Whilst I'm not going to stop singing yid, this is the best argument I've seen against it. I put down my reasons for liking the term earlier in this thread. If a majority of Jewish Spurs thought the same as you, I would stop singing it. Perhaps that's not good enough and even a minority feeling this way puts me morally in the wrong for singing yid. (I am also aware that there has been no study into the opinions of Jewish Spurs so it is based on my own experience that your view is a minority one, rather than scientific fact.)

Then again to stop on the behalf of a minority of Jewish Spurs being offended would open the door for not singing "sign on" to Liverpool fans in order to avoid offending unemployed Spurs fans, or to stop singing anything about Wenger being a pedophile because there are undoubtedly people who have been abused in a football crowd and it may make them feel uncomfortable, and so on. Although you could perhaps counter that your level of discomfort is higher than these people, it is an impossible thing to measure.
 
Then again to stop on the behalf of a minority of Jewish Spurs being offended would open the door for not singing "sign on" to Liverpool fans in order to avoid offending unemployed Spurs fans, or to stop singing anything about Wenger being a pedophile because there are undoubtedly people who have been abused in a football crowd and it may make them feel uncomfortable, and so on. Although you could perhaps counter that your level of discomfort is higher than these people, it is an impossible thing to measure.

Gotta say, the most obvious argument for NOT singing the Wenger song is he's most probably NOT a paedophile!
It's offensive whichever way you look at it... Unless he is of course, in which case the fucking dirty nonce deserves all he gets!!!!!!
 
The more you tie your own feelings to one word, the more it holds you down. In the end its just a word. PRetty sure we'd be seen as a target at this point whether we stopped saying yid or not
 
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