Yid no more

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Because you're making a completely false analogy that's why. I've already explained this at least twice

WE ARE NOT THE WOMAN IN THE MINI-SKIRT

WE ARE NOT JEWISH

I reckon the point is that they THINK we've got a mini-skirt on and that's what they're basing their actions upon. Yeah, if the get closer they'll see it was an optical illusion, but they don't exactly care about that.
 
I reckon the point is that they THINK we've got a mini-skirt on and that's what they're basing their actions upon. Yeah, if the get closer they'll see it was an optical illusion, but they don't exactly care about that.
Fair comment, but anyway, I'm just fed up with this analogy, which I think is completely unhelpful.

This is definitely my last comment on the 'mini-skirt' issue.
 
Because you're making a completely false analogy that's why. I've already explained this at least twice

WE ARE NOT THE WOMAN IN THE MINI-SKIRT

WE ARE NOT JEWISH

I hope this helps

If you're making a general point about rape and women, fine who's going to argue with you, OF COURSE WOMEN IN MINI SKIRTS DON'T DESERVE TO BE RAPED - WHAT SANE PERSON WOULD THINK THEY DID -

but this is a Spurs forum we're talking about football here, and us calling ourselves Yids.

If you want to discuss the question of rape and women in mini-skirts I'm sure there are thousands of sites for you to post on. Or even go to the off site topics on here

This is the last time I go through this with your good self - If you bring it up again, I'm just putting you on ignore, because the point you're making, while entirely correct in itself, is not relevant to this debate IMHO :)

There really was no need for that tone in what was up to now a completely civilised discussion.

Perhaps you should learn not to project your premise of debate onto others - and not get carried away with internet shouting and ignorebutton-threats , when they are too clever to accept your projection as fact ?
 
Thanks for the info TRS.

This article on NewsNow is perhaps a bit off beam then?

http://www.threematchban.com/Articl...s-dangers-as-does-being-a-spurs-yid-overseas?

What I find most interesting is the quote from the injured person.

“To us, [using the term ‘Yids’] is our badge, it’s what we are. It’s a throwaway term that we use for ourselves,”

As I've been arguing, most people using the term 'Yids' aren't displaying any great affinity to Jewish culture or making a political stand. Certainly this is the case for Mr Eccles and he believes it to be the case for Spurs fans in general, which has been precisely one of my points all along.

We've already been through all this stuff about Jewish culture! Even if yid isn't about Jewish culture/politics for everyone, it's still a worthwhile thing to sing!

Whilst I concede your point that it may not be political to most, I also think it is political for more than you think. I remember one time at Man City where their fans were hissing and the Spurs fans around me were outraged; not because it showed how much Man City hated us but because they were angry at the anti-semitism. I think that you maybe think that "beered-up bellicose Englishmen" are unlikely to think rationally or philosophically about anything which to me is a bit judgemental.
 
Anyway…

I'm not sure that this is accurate. As I said in my previous post, I think it's Baddiel's movie that brought this all back into the spotlight.
Hello mate, this thread has gone south a bit, so I don't really want to carry on posting in it... But you put a good reply together so I thought it right to respond.

Maybe you are right, but to me, all of the previous media has been completely UK centric. If you look at both of those articles, they would have been lucky to have been given a single column inch outside of the UK. For one thing, they are just column pieces, not actual news articles.

Badiel certainly brought it to the fore by getting Linekar et al involved in his "Y Word" video, but again, I am not sure how much attention anything like that really generates abroad.

The point is, branding an entire clubs fans racists and then trying to make it a police matter IS newsworthy and is the sort of thing that gets reported internationally. next come the editorials, the response comments and the blogging. It might only happen in a flash, but it has done more raise our profile than every other peice of news in the preceeding decade in this respect... As I say, in no small part because it (rightly) makes us re-affirm our position on the matter very publically.

To the casual internet user, Ajax are just as identifiable as Tottenham are... Where was the attack on their fans when they went to Lyon last year? Occam's Razor to me states that we were given a hiding directly after speaking about the issue in front of an abnormally wide and large audience. Regardless of current economic tensions, the timing is there in crystal clarity imo.
 
Maybe you are right, but to me, all of the previous media has been completely UK centric. If you look at both of those articles, they would have been lucky to have been given a single column inch outside of the UK.
I agree. But I believe that the Baddiel stuff and the SBL stuff has been UK-centric. Since you talk about attention being generated abroad, I can say that, having lived abroad, I've never heard of Spurs' being considered a Jewish club among basically anyone, which is also why no one imagines that I'm Jewish because I follow Spurs. In fact, considering how unconsciously… anti-Semitic isn't quite right, but it's not wrong… where I currently live can be, I'm often asked if I'm Jewish ("not that there's anything wrong with that!" they quickly add), but it's usually because my name is so weird by Lithuanian standards and because I used to sport a beard that would make an entire shtetl jealous.

Mostly I'd say that no one has heard about the Jewish club business since no one has heard of Spurs. Even in France, where everyone is a nominal Woolwich fan, the most involved conversations I ever had about Spurs were about how good Bale is. I suppose with Lloris the profile has gone up a bit, but I don't know. It's not the case, though, that Herbert's words, or stadium inspections/testimony/etc. are making the sports pages in France, considering how little they devote to the PL in general. Google searching sites in France for "Peter Herbert" and Tottenham hit unrelated stories like this one, where Herbert comes up in context of the John Obi Mikel business. The only article I could find that referenced Herbert and Spurs directly comes from So Foot, an intellectual football magazine with leftist leanings (so not likely to be read by right wing thugs in Lyon) that merely pointed out that Spurs, despite Herbert's complaints, will let fans continue to chant as they have (as such, it's largely a translation/edit of this DM piece):
So Foot said:
Connu pour compter un grand nombre de supporters issus de la communauté juive de Londres,Tottenham ne verra pas certains chants disparaître à White Hart Lane. Dans l’œil du cyclone depuis quelques semaines, les Spurs s’étaient vu accuser de laisser leur public utilisé le mot « youpin » les jours de matchs.

Un fait dont l’Association des Avocats Noirs s’était publiquement offusquée. Son patron, Peter Herbert, répétait à l’envi que le club ne combattait pas assez l’utilisation du terme antisémite : « L’argument (brandi par Tottenham disant que c’est une tradition, ndlr) est le même qu’il y a quarante ans. Je suis profondément attristé que les dirigeants adoptent cette position. (…) Ça ne posait pas problème il y a cinquante ans, désormais si. », conclut-il.

Les fans de Tottenham, qu’ils soient juifs ou non, pourront donc continuer à chanter la « Yid Army » (l’armée youpine) sans risque de poursuites. Le club a par ailleurs fait savoir ce mardi qu’il « défendrait toujours la liberté d’expression de ses supporters.»
You continue:
The point is, branding an entire clubs fans racists and then trying to make it a police matter IS newsworthy and is the sort of thing that gets reported internationally. next come the editorials, the response comments and the blogging.
Fair enough, but then the onus is on you to demonstrate this international tempest, not merely speculate about its existence. I've tried to show that I've not found evidence of it in France.
To the casual internet user, Ajax are just as identifiable as Tottenham are... Where was the attack on their fans when they went to Lyon last year?
I have no idea, but I also know there are other variables also in play: Spurs are an English club, for example, and Ajax aren't, making the attack an anti-English one with a special sauce of anti-Semitism, etc. Ultimately, my point isn't figuring out the motivation behind Lyon and Rome. I won't be able to. My point is more that I simply don't grant Herbert or the SBL as much power over framing the right-wing thug agenda on the Continent as you do.

Furthermore, I can't get around the logic involved: 1. Herbert insists that Spurs fans are "anti-Semitic" in their chanting. Hence, 2. Anti-Semites on the Continent attack Spurs fans for being… Jewish? According to Herbert, we're not Jews, and we should stop engaging in anti-Semitic activity. Yet to anti-Semites, we are Jews, who deserve a beating. I simply don't see how the latter follows from the former. OTOH, logic tends not to be thugs' forte…
 
Edit:
Actually sorry Éperons Éperons , this thread has turned a bit nasty in parts, I don't want to keep it alive. I'll just concede that maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. Last report about Spurs was on 20th Nov. Two days later a lad was stabbed. Just seems too much of a coincidence to me.
 
We've already been through all this stuff about Jewish culture! Even if yid isn't about Jewish culture/politics for everyone, it's still a worthwhile thing to sing!

Whilst I concede your point that it may not be political to most, I also think it is political for more than you think. I remember one time at Man City where their fans were hissing and the Spurs fans around me were outraged; not because it showed how much Man City hated us but because they were angry at the anti-semitism. I think that you maybe think that "beered-up bellicose Englishmen" are unlikely to think rationally or philosophically about anything which to me is a bit judgemental.
I don't think it's a worthwhile thing to sing at all. I think it's counter productive and erroneous. I take your point about me being too judgemental on the 'beered up bellicose' singers. But I've been one of those many a time and at that stage I'm not thinking philosophically and rationally, and all the evidence in my possession is that the people around me singing it weren't either.

I've no doubt at all then when people hear hissing they are offended on humanitarian grounds, not because it's anti-Spurs. But there's a massive leap of faith from that to saying that people singing 'yids' are making a political/anti-semitic point. It's not a leap I think most of them are making, as Mr Eccles says 'it's a throwaway remark'.
 
Hello mate, this thread has gone south a bit, so I don't really want to carry on posting in it... But you put a good reply together so I thought it right to respond.

Maybe you are right, but to me, all of the previous media has been completely UK centric. If you look at both of those articles, they would have been lucky to have been given a single column inch outside of the UK. For one thing, they are just column pieces, not actual news articles.

Badiel certainly brought it to the fore by getting Linekar et al involved in his "Y Word" video, but again, I am not sure how much attention anything like that really generates abroad.

The point is, branding an entire clubs fans racists and then trying to make it a police matter IS newsworthy and is the sort of thing that gets reported internationally. next come the editorials, the response comments and the blogging. It might only happen in a flash, but it has done more raise our profile than every other peice of news in the preceeding decade in this respect... As I say, in no small part because it (rightly) makes us re-affirm our position on the matter very publically.

To the casual internet user, Ajax are just as identifiable as Tottenham are... Where was the attack on their fans when they went to Lyon last year? Occam's Razor to me states that we were given a hiding directly after speaking about the issue in front of an abnormally wide and large audience. Regardless of current economic tensions, the timing is there in crystal clarity imo.
But when Ajax go abroad do they go round shouting 'yids' and 'yid army' or some such?
 
But when Ajax go abroad do they go round shouting 'yids' and 'yid army' or some such?
I get the sense that you imagine the situation to be something like this: a bunch of beered-up, bellicose Brits are in a pub on the Continent, and they take to shouting things like "Yid Army!" (thereby underscoring the parallel you made in a prev. response to me where you said it's like Canadians going to Europe and chanting, "USA!"). As these Brits are engaging in this behaviour, a band of anti-Semites happens to walk down the street at the same time. This band of anti-Semites is rather smart, since, despite being French, they understand the chant "Yids!" (which features 0 French words), and decide they're in the presence of Jews. They subsequently beat up the Spurs fans.

Anti-Semites know Ajax is a "Jewish club" (even though it isn't true). And they know that Spurs are a "Jewish club" (even though it isn't true). And should anti-Semites attack Spurs fans abroad, it's not because of the chanting above, but, rather, because it's a pre-meditated move on the part of the thugs to hunt down the "Jewish supporters" and rough them up. In that case, it doesn't matter what Ajax fans chant (and it's "Joden, Joden", anyway), because the anti-Semites, being anti-Semites, will attack even peaceful "Jews" who keep themselves to themselves or even people they think are Jews who actually aren't.
 
I get the sense that you imagine the situation to be something like this: a bunch of beered-up, bellicose Brits are in a pub on the Continent, and they take to shouting things like "Yid Army!" (thereby underscoring the parallel you made in a prev. response to me where you said it's like Canadians going to Europe and chanting, "USA!"). As these Brits are engaging in this behaviour, a band of anti-Semites happens to walk down the street at the same time. This band of anti-Semites is rather smart, since, despite being French, they understand the chant "Yids!" (which features 0 French words), and decide they're in the presence of Jews. They subsequently beat up the Spurs fans.

Anti-Semites know Ajax is a "Jewish club" (even though it isn't true). And they know that Spurs are a "Jewish club" (even though it isn't true). And should anti-Semites attack Spurs fans abroad, it's not because of the chanting above, but, rather, because it's a pre-meditated move on the part of the thugs to hunt down the "Jewish supporters" and rough them up. In that case, it doesn't matter what Ajax fans chant (and it's "Joden, Joden", anyway), because the anti-Semites, being anti-Semites, will attack even peaceful "Jews" who keep themselves to themselves or even people they think are Jews who actually aren't.

Exxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxactly!! Good point, perfectly made.

This has never been 'our' problem!

It's like blaming Jews for Hitler... he was hating them all on his own thanks, without any interference or provocation from the Jewish community! THAT'S the point... the anti-Semitic movement will hate anything and everything THEY perceive as being connected with Jews...
People don't for one minute think that Spurs fans chanting 'Yid Army' has suddenly awoken a hitherto dormant hatred for Jews in this Country and across the continent do they...? Wake up, it's ALWAYS been there!
 
I don't think it's a worthwhile thing to sing at all. I think it's counter productive and erroneous. I take your point about me being too judgemental on the 'beered up bellicose' singers. But I've been one of those many a time and at that stage I'm not thinking philosophically and rationally, and all the evidence in my possession is that the people around me singing it weren't either.

I've no doubt at all then when people hear hissing they are offended on humanitarian grounds, not because it's anti-Spurs. But there's a massive leap of faith from that to saying that people singing 'yids' are making a political/anti-semitic point. It's not a leap I think most of them are making, as Mr Eccles says 'it's a throwaway remark'.

OK, well obviously whether or not it's worthwhile is a matter of personal choice, and I am not going to criticise you for your own individual view on that. To me it is worthwhile because of the reasons I stated in a previous post, which I will rewrite, hopefully a bit more eloquently here:

1. It tells a story of the 'social history' of our club
2. It reflects that we have a diverse fan base (yes I know Woolwich do too) who- if not all wanting to make a political, anti-fascist point- are non-racist. I'm proud of this.
3. To me personally it is a gesture of anti-fascism, and I think to some others too...if you read others posts on here on this issue people have said similar statements to this, I remember an excellent blog entry by Jewvenile Youth (who is actually Jewish as well unlike me) which is worth reading. Here it is http://www.sami-bin-raab.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/we-will-always-be-yids.html. Anecdotally this sort of thing seems to be the view of the majority of Jewish Spurs fans, although I respect the views of those who disagree.
4. It neuters the anti-semitic taunts of opposition fans to some extent.
5. Is there a better, more tribal sounding football chant than boom...boom...boom-boom-boom-boom YIDS!?

Whilst it's up to you whether or not it's worthwhile to sing, I can't agree that it is erroneous or counter-productive. It's not erroneous because the meaning of the word, in the context of Tottenham culture, has changed to mean Spurs fan (who may or may not be Jewish)...obviously the meaning of words change over time and in different contexts. It's not counter-productive (IMO) because generally speaking it enriches the matchday experience for our fans, and I do not believe that dropping it would lead to anything less in the way of racist attacks, anti-semitic abuse etc., and even if this is the case I think the dreaded short skirt analogy is relevant here (apologies in advance for bringing that back up!) because we're not the ones in the wrong, therefore we're not the ones whose behaviour should change.

I can't imagine not singing "yiddo, yiddo" as a mark of respect to an old player like Gary Mabbutt when he comes out on the pitch. I can't imagine not celebrating a goal with "yiddio, yiddio, yiddio, yiddio". To me losing it would be akin to Cardiff changing their colours and badge to appeal to the Asian market. Part of this trend of modern football becoming ever more plastic, ever more safe, sanitised and politically correct, losing it's heritage and the culture which makes each club a separate community rather than identikit money-making machines.
 
But when Ajax go abroad do they go round shouting 'yids' and 'yid army' or some such?
I know quite a few Ajax fans that refer to themselves as "The Noses". This is because Jewish people apparently have large noses. Quite a large Jewish connection there, no idea if there's a song about it though.
 
Well PGY we're never going to agree, I think the chants of Yids etc are false, provocative and counter productive, and some people see them as racist too, though I wouldn't go that far.

I spent the first twenty years of going to the Lane and longer than that following them through the press and the occasional TV game, and there were no shouts and chants of Yids then. We managed perfectly well without them, in fact the atmosphere was a lot better in those day than it is in Poison Hart Lane these days.
Where we get lots of negativity interspersed with these horrible Yid chants.

Although I will willingly agree there was a stack of moany negative Spurs in the 60s 70s and 80s too, though it was easier to avoid them in the days of the terraces where you could move around easier to the more positive elements.

Incidentally I praise the positivity of the 1882 movement, though I dare say they do all the 'yid stuff' too.
 
Cheers for sharing that 8cole. I've known stacks of Spurs fans over the 50+ years, and without doubt more are right wing than left wing, despite what some on here would have us believe.

These days as I've got older and so have my friends both old and new, there's a vast majority of right wing over left wing, but that doubtless reflects my age group.
I suspect it does. I have found younger Spurs fans to be mostly left wing, which as a centre right person, always made me feel like the odd one out.
 
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