We can be HEROES Barca Spurs 11/12/2018

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ArcspacE

BINNED AGAIN
What about Liverpool and Chelsea winning it? We are better than the Chelsea side that won it. And, off the top of my head it's not easy to remember much about Liverpool's team that won it in 2005, but they finished 5th in the league and lost 14 league games (only six points above us that season, incidentally). I don't see why those teams should be considered first tier and not us this season. I'd say it's more accurate to say that both those two seasons a second tier club won it, as well as Liverpool getting to the final last year. It's a knockout competition and anything is possible. However, if we can't beat Barca's reserves then we don't deserve to win it.
Liverpool is a top tier club on the European stage though and have experience including winning it 5 times - they are an elite European club. Last year it also showed although they had a much easier draw than in 2005.

I also think Poche is not a very good knock-out manager which doesn't bother me much but I do think he's improving every year and we're very close now. Point remains - much higher chance of winning the EL and the CL.
 

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Liverpool is a top tier club on the European stage though and have experience including winning it 5 times - they are an elite European club. Last year it also showed although they had a much easier draw than in 2005.

I also think Poche is not a very good knock-out manager which doesn't bother me much but I do think he's improving every year and we're very close now. Point remains - much higher chance of winning the EL and the CL.

Have they?! God. I just wish they’d mention it a bit more
 
What do you think the Media's reaction will be if we get through by beating Barcelona? A fantastic result or they only won because certain players were missing, Barcelona did not play well because they were already top of the group etc.
I really expect the latter and no credit at all.
 
Liverpool is a top tier club on the European stage though and have experience including winning it 5 times - they are an elite European club. Last year it also showed although they had a much easier draw than in 2005.

I also think Poche is not a very good knock-out manager which doesn't bother me much but I do think he's improving every year and we're very close now. Point remains - much higher chance of winning the EL and the CL.
I do wonder whether that kind of thing is valid; yes Liverpool had won it four times before when they did it in 2005, but that was back when they were a truly excellent side that dominated England. None of the playing staff, and AFAIK none of the backroom staff, were the same. It may make some difference, because the players maybe expect to win it more based on the club's history, but I don't think it makes a huge difference.

This group of players/manager have made bad errors in knockout stages, and have perhaps struggled under the pressure before. However, all this will have contributed to their- no longer inconsiderable- experience of playing at the top level and crucially I think we can all agree this is a group that do believe in themselves and their ability to win things.

Yes we have more chance of winning the EL (even then the fact we probably wouldn't take it seriously levels out the odds a bit- we have underperformed massively in the EL for this reason) and obviously even if we get through winning the CL is a massive long-shot, but I think it's within the realms of possibility, and far more likely than winning the league this season. Personally I'd rather get through and give the CL a shot. After all, it's what we get for all the hard work done in the league every season, so it makes sense to make it a priority, particularly when there is pretty much zero chance of winning the league.
 
We have a better chance of winning the Premier league than the champions league, even if we beat Barcelona. That seems pretty obvious to me.

Man City are probably winning the PL, but whoever wins the CL will still have to get past them, plus all or any of Real, Barcelona, PSG, Juventus and Bayern.
 
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paddygspur

Supporter
We have a better chance of winning the Premier league than the champions league, even if we beat Barcelona. That seems pretty obvious to me.

Man City are probably winning the PL, but whoever wins the CL will still have to get past them, plus all or any of Real, Barcelona, PSG, Juventus and Bayern.
The champions league is easier to win although fucking difficult.

The league is always won by the best team in the country. The CL winner is often not the best team in Europe.
 

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Totti

Chess extraordinaire
The champions league is easier to win although fucking difficult.

The league is always won by the best team in the country. The CL winner is often not the best team in Europe.
This.

Knockout tournaments are a matter of luck. You win the league on being the best over 38 games. Considering you COULD miss out all the difficult teams and then play a one off final, I'd say the Champions League is easier to win though that doesn't make it easy.
 
This.

Knockout tournaments are a matter of luck. You win the league on being the best over 38 games. Considering you COULD miss out all the difficult teams and then play a one off final, I'd say the Champions League is easier to win though that doesn't make it easy.
Not really. Unless you're VERY lucky (Chelsea?) in both the draw, and the matches. And VERY lucky hardly ever happens.

The league has more games, but at least 24 of those are against objectively much worse (and poorer) teams. The knockout rounds of the CL are two legged, making lucky results almost unheard of.

Real Madrid, the world's richest club, has won 4 of the last 5 tournaments. The Champions League is entirely designed to funnel the biggest handful of richest most dominant clubs to the semis. If you're not in that club, there's almost no chance any more. Any of the PL Top 6 can win the league any season, it just takes a good run and the others to fall away. We have been agonisingly close recently, yet never get anywhere near the CL final.

The odds back this up. Ignoring Spurs because we're halfway out the door:

Man City: PL odds: 2/9 CL odds:7/2
Liverpool: PL: 4/1 CL: 14/1
 
Also depends on the season, City are still miles ahead of us (make no mistake), which makes it close to impossible to finish above them over the course of 38 matches. A bit of luck in the draw and a couple of good matches and you could be already in the semi-finals of the CL.
 

Totti

Chess extraordinaire
Not really. Unless you're VERY lucky (Chelsea?) in both the draw, and the matches. And VERY lucky hardly ever happens.

The league has more games, but at least 24 of those are against objectively much worse (and poorer) teams. The knockout rounds of the CL are two legged, making lucky results almost unheard of.

Real Madrid, the world's richest club, has won 4 of the last 5 tournaments. The Champions League is entirely designed to funnel the biggest handful of richest most dominant clubs to the semis. If you're not in that club, there's almost no chance any more. Any of the PL Top 6 can win the league any season, it just takes a good run and the others to fall away. We have been agonisingly close recently, yet never get anywhere near the CL final.

The odds back this up. Ignoring Spurs because we're halfway out the door:

Man City: PL odds: 2/9 CL odds:7/2
Liverpool: PL: 4/1 CL: 14/1

Odds to win means nothing. There's no favourite to win the Champions League. And usually those hailed as 'favourites' by the bookies never win it.

I bet Liverpools odds to reach the final last year were pretty high. Yet they got there through luck of the draw. Besides City (whos number they have most of the time anyway) they played no one good until the final. And then their luck ran out. Salah getting injured etc. - bloody hell, even Madrid were lucky to get to the final last season.

Cup tournaments are ALWAYS luck. That's why they're so liked. That's why City don't win the domestic cups every season and why the double is so hard to win.

Man Utd dominated English football for near on 20 years. They won the double four times. Why is that? You'd think if they can dominate the league they should have no problem in the cups..
 

Spursdem

Supporter
Suspended
I do wonder whether that kind of thing is valid; yes Liverpool had won it four times before when they did it in 2005, but that was back when they were a truly excellent side that dominated England. None of the playing staff, and AFAIK none of the backroom staff, were the same. It may make some difference, because the players maybe expect to win it more based on the club's history, but I don't think it makes a huge difference.
Bingo.

It makes no difference. Just because Phil Neal has won 4 European Cups doesn't mean that's going to elevate Andy Robertson in a Champion's League tie.
 
Odds to win means nothing. There's no favourite to win the Champions League. And usually those hailed as 'favourites' by the bookies never win it.

I bet Liverpools odds to reach the final last year were pretty high. Yet they got there through luck of the draw. Besides City (whos number they have most of the time anyway) they played no one good until the final. And then their luck ran out. Salah getting injured etc. - bloody hell, even Madrid were lucky to get to the final last season.

Cup tournaments are ALWAYS luck. That's why they're so liked. That's why City don't win the domestic cups every season and why the double is so hard to win.

Man Utd dominated English football for near on 20 years. They won the double four times. Why is that? You'd think if they can dominate the league they should have no problem in the cups..
Odds are based detailed analysis by companies with millions on the line, so mean a lot more than you suggest. Obviously nothing's certain, that's why betting exists.

Also don't conflate the chance of something lucky/ unlikely happening somewhere in the cup, with the chance of something lucky happening to one club. If the CL was so unpredictable then Real wouldn't have won it 4/5 years.
 

Totti

Chess extraordinaire
Odds are based detailed analysis by companies with millions on the line, so mean a lot more than you suggest. Obviously nothing's certain, that's why betting exists.

Also don't conflate the chance of something lucky/ unlikely happening somewhere in the cup, with the chance of something lucky happening to one club. If the CL was so unpredictable then Real wouldn't have won it 4/5 years.
Real Madrid winning it 4 out of 5 years was unpredictable though.

Before them, not a single team in 20+ years had retained it, let alone won it three years on the bounce. They also got a luck on the way. Funnily enough, they've only won the league once in the last six years.

They may have won it 4 out of the last 5 years yet they're STILL not favourites to win it again. Why is that? You'd think a team so dominant would be favourite. The reason? Because anyone could win that competition. Who are the favourites anyway? I imagine Barcelona (because of Messi), Man City (because of their squad) and perhaps Juventus (because of Ronaldo) ?
 

Mrs Perryman

I'm a Cockney Malteser
Only if you promise me that we beat the Scousers in the QF, Absolutely destroy the chavs in the SF, then win the final against the Goonies with an injury time goal where Sissoko scores the winner tapping the ball in from 6 yards out with an erection that sprung up in preparation for the goal he would score.
What do you reckon the odds on that would be? :)
 

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