Indeed. He normally reserves his shit-posting for the match threads.
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Indeed. He normally reserves his shit-posting for the match threads.
I would argue that a promising young player needs both training with an elite first team and getting senior minutes under different strategies in order to give them well-rounded development.
Dele had been playing for MK Dons for a couple of years before he joined Spurs (and training back at Spurs 2 days a week whilst on his loanback at MKDons certainly helped develop him - but its training in parallel with game time which was effective , and Kane had been on very productive loans to Leyton Orient (then League 1) and Millwall (Championship) before unfortunate loans at Norwich (where he was injured in about his second game and out for half a season) and a bad loan at Leicester where the brilliant manager there had Kane and Vardy permanently on the bench whilst 2 numpties played at Striker.
What Poch is very good at is polishing up players who have a little experience - that's why Kane who looked a very good player on loan at Orient and Millwall looked even better after Poch's coaching.
Foyth was bought for £10m or so after playing for a club in Argentina half a dozen times or so and obviously Poch saw something in him. Again Poch has coached him after his first breakthough into mens football. Whilst Foyth has done very well, at times his lack of gametime shows through (eg 2 penalties given away on his debut) - I do wonder whether playing Foyth as RB is a way to give him game time in a less vital position than CB. If so, its a good plan, but it does illustrate why training needs to go in parallel with playing time in mens football.
Winks and now Skipp are pretty much the only players who Poch has given a first team debut too and persevered with - he's given debuts to lots, maybe 20 players at Spurs, but most only for a few minutes in one match, and that's it (the notable exception being Onomah). And over 5 seasons at Spurs that's actually not a great record to only bring one player (Winks) through from Spurs youth to first team, and hopefully now Skipp will build on his 400+ minutes last season to become a first team regular this season.
So with Spurs probably needing one if not two CB's next summer or the one after that, will Poch further develop 20 year old Eyoma (who seemed to be Poch's choice as CB last season after an impressive 2018 preseason, but only playing less than 50 minutes over about 10 appearances in the first team) or develop 20 year old Tanganga who got rave reviews this pre-season ?
Glad you agree that Parrott is too good to be wasted. If he's not on loan, I hope he plays a little more first team football than Skipp did last season which was about 450 minutes or the equivalent of 5 games) whilst training at the same time with first team and topping up his playing time at u23 football (as he did last night)
BTW there are over 30 players in the development squad this season - too many to play u23 football and too many to be brought through into the first team...….so that's why loans for a number of them have to be the answer.
Agree with nearly all of that general overview on the academy and youth players - but this is the Troy Parrott thread and we're talking only about him. Staying with the club and getting first team exposure, international experience, and playing under 23 games for him I think is far better than a season long loan at an inferior level.
No clubs spending 100's of millions on ready made proven players is ever going to bring forward more than the odd one or two academy players, that's just the reality at the very top level. That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying. Sadly the vast majority will go the way of Onomah an excellent player but just not good enough yet for a top four club ... chances are Parrott will end up the same way, but let's hope he's the next "one of our own" that makes the giant leap ...
For this season, agree Parrott can still learn from playing u23 games (as he only played a few u23 games last season so its not repeating the year), training with the first team and playing a bit.
One other point on Pach though, is that once players start to train with the first team, they have usually stopped playing u23 football (other than the u18's playing the first game at NWHL, I don't think Skipp played any youth football last year, so the only football Skipp had was the 400 odd minutes with the first team) ……...which imo is not good, as football is about putting into practice what has been learned on the training ground, and this season Parrott wont be getting enough first team football to totally drop u23 football.
Luckily in some respects Spurs don't have a specialist striker as back up to Kane, so hopefully Parrott will make a mark in the first team this season and hopefully then get even more chances with the first team next season...…...otherwise this conversation will probably be resurrected !
Bit out on Skipp - last season he played far more matches than you might think
'Skippy' actually featured in seven different competitions across four age groups in 2018/19. He played once in the Under-18 Premier League - in nothing less than the first ever football fixture to be played at our new stadium as our Under-18s beat Southampton in a Test Event match in March, 2019 - and played three times in the Under-19 UEFA Youth League, in addition to five Premier League 2 appearances for our Under-23s in the first two months of the season and an additional game for the Development Squad against Gillingham's senior side in the EFL Trophy in October, 2018. For the first team, he picked up game time in the Premier League, FA Cup and Carabao Cup.
Yes.
Winks' progression to our first team is all about luck and injuries. Exceptionally talented footballer who really has only got the chances given to him due to Dembele and Wanyama mostly being injured and Dier being found out as a non-midfielder. But the game is all about luck. Harry Kane can tell you that.
Loans are fucking useful for getting young players the relevant game time they need in competitive mens football. Otherwise they are stuck doing fuck all but playing the odd cup game against... you guessed it... "Cloggers" and playing no football at all. KWP is your example here. Should have been playing mens football from 19 years old onwards.
Glad you mentioned Dele though. A guy who's been playing competitive mens football since he was 16 years old. If only we signed him at 16 years old and just allowed him to train with our WORLD CLASS squad instead. Who knows. He may be even better.
"Best developer of young talent in the EPL" gave me a chuckle though.
You don't get how playing competitive mens football can be more important to a players development than simply training with good players?
I've seen training sessions mate. They're nothing on a competitive game of football. Tough? Sure. Enough to get you ready for competitive mens football at the highest level? Fucking no chance.
No where near as much as actually PLAYING football.
I mean, at this rate we may aswell just bow out of the academy leagues, surely? Our players will develop better training with the Spurs first team then actually playing football.... right? What's the point even having an academy? Sign them young and get them training with the men as early as possible.
Beats playing football.
That's not true about Winks at all. He was never a truly stand out talent. He's been moulded into a particular type of player and he's starting to excel in that position. If he'd have been loaned out I don't believe for a moment a Championship team would have used him as a DM. And his career could easily have gone the way of Tom Carroll.
In terms of first team football though :
England - O. Skipp - Profile with news, career statistics and history - Soccerway
England - O. Skipp - Profile with news, career statistics and history - Soccerway
int.soccerway.com
PL - 216 mins
FA Cup 180 mins
League Cup 6 mins
Total First Team = 402 mins (equivalent to 4.5 matches)
Add on 10 youth games (all but the first u18 match at NWHL were before he made his first team debut in a competitive match, reinforcing my point that once playing for the first team, Poch tends to stop the kids playing youth football) and its not a lot of football - a total of around 14.5 matches in a season.
Maybe less playing time than you thought ?!
Yeah, I get what you mean. I just wonder if Parrot wouldn't be better off staying at the club and mixing first team training, with some cup games and U23 games rather than going on loan in a lower league.
I understand the arguement for getting competitive match time, but I'm not sure it's always the best thing if they're then at an inferior club that's playing and training to a lower standard.
In terms of first team football though :
England - O. Skipp - Profile with news, career statistics and history - Soccerway
England - O. Skipp - Profile with news, career statistics and history - Soccerway
PL - 216 mins
FA Cup 180 mins
League Cup 6 mins
Total First Team = 402 mins (equivalent to 4.5 matches)
Add on 10 youth games (all but the first u18 match at NWHL were before he made his first team debut in a competitive match, reinforcing my point that once playing for the first team, Poch tends to stop the kids playing youth football) and its not a lot of football - a total of around 14.5 matches in a season.
Maybe less playing time than you thought ?!
It is what it is, not a question of "thought" the numbers are readily available he played about 1,200 minutes .... compare that to our loan players how many did Skipp get more playing time than?
Going out on loan is no guarantee of 50 games and 3,000 minutes ....
Onomah - Wednesday 15 appearances, 3 assists, 906 minutes played
CCV - Swansea 30 appearances, 2203 minutes played
Georgiou - Atletico Levante 11 appearances, 1 goal, 703 minutes
Harrison - Melbourne City 8 appearances, 604 minutes
Ogilvie - Gillingham 29 appearances, 2 assists, 2206 minutes
Sterling - Sunderland 8 appearance 487 minutes
Shashoua - Atetico Beleares 38 appearances, 6 goals, 2 assists, 2452 minutes
GKN - AS Monaco 3 appearances, 21 minutes
Edwards - SBV Excelsior 25 appearances, 2 goals, 2 assists, 1683 minutes
There are around 30 players in the Development squad this season, to which can be added Troy Parrott, Harvey White, Dennis Cirkin and a couple of others who were starting to play u23 football last season, and Kion Etete who we bought from Notts County Tottenham Hotspur Under 23 Academy Players | Tottenham Hotspur
So comfortably around 35 young players.
Its widely recognised that playing u23 football for one season is good for a players development, a 2nd year and the development is very significantly less (only exception probably being the 3 or 4 matches in Checkatrade Trophy v League 1 or League 2 sides) and a 3rd season the players if anything regress. At that point the youngsters need to be playing mens football, not youth football.
So a squad of around 18-20 youngsters, mainly built around last seasons Academy Year 2 just promoted to the Development squad will be those playing u23 football.
And that means we have around 15 others in the development squad who will not be playing u23 football (and the majority of those would get little out of that level of football anyway, they are beyond it).
So what to do with those 15 or so, well two options :
1. Stay and train with the first team if capable
2. Out on loan to play mens football (often very different to youth football).
Lets look at a few of these players (probably the best of the older ones) who Poch might take an interest in :
Eyoma, age 20 (CB) - Played well in pre-season 2018 and off the back of that played in a few matches in 2018/19 as a sub often picking up less than 10 minutes per appearance.
Tanganga, age 20 (CB) - Very impressive in pre-season 2019 (45 mins in each of 4 matches ?), scored a penalty in a penalty shoot out, not the best pen but importantly didn't lose his nerve. (cough Eriksen).
Marsh, age 20 (DM) - Played well in pre-season 2018 and like Eyoma also made a few short appearances in 2018/19. Technically limited, but as a DM maybe that's acceptable, but certainly trusted by Poch
Oakley-Boothe, age 20 (CM/AM) - Played excellently in pre-season 2018 and go to midfielder for E u17 in their WC win. Sadly picked up a number of niggling injuries in 2017/18 when training with first team and Poch may have lost confidence in him - particularly if he also saw the younger White and Bowden coming through.
White , aged 17/18 (CM/DM) - Played very well in pre-season 2019 as makeshift LB, not his best position. Possibly one of the best academy players we have had for some tine, technically excellent, switched to CB when Spurs u19s played Barcelona to give Spurs better ball control of the ball, and like every other match White looked very good. As u16 played as a CAM, looking good. Dead ball expert too.
Bowden, aged 18/19 (CM/DM) - On the fringes of preseason 2019, but has trained with first team since. If White wasn't here we'd have hear more of him.
Roles, aged 20 (AM/CM) - Standout of u21 season 2018/19 with record numbers of goals and assists, decent pre-season 2019, most memorable perhaps for a nerveless assured penalty in the shoot out. Very hard working plays anywhere across front 3 or CM.
Sashoua (Sam), aged 20 (AM) - Spent 2018/19 on loan playing 3rd tier Spanish football with 30-40 appearances scoring and assisting a few, after an appearance on Spurs bench in 2017/18.
Parrott, aged 17 (CF). Think everyone knows of him now.
There's a few others who could be on that list,
The question is how many can Poch include in First Team training and give some first team appearances to - Parrott, White and Bowden could still benefit by playing u23 football, the others who have already had one or two seasons playing at that level really need a bigger challenge, whether that be Spurs first team training and appearances or first team appearances on loan.
So how many can Poch include in first team training and making a few appearances - I'd guess the maximum might be say 6 ? And Poch has taken on first team at least 6 of those listed above as being good enough to train with the first team.
For the others, loans appear to be the only option. And we hope they notch up more than the 400 odd minutes that Skipp did for Spurs first team last season - as most of the loanees you list did.
Any alternatives to loans ? Or do you think Poch can accommodate many more than the maximum 6 I have suggested ?
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I think Poch likes our Troy...
I bet he doesn't go so far as to call him "Mini Messi" like he did with Marcus Edwards, but I'm guessing he sees a future at Spurs for him... not Excelsior of Rotterdam!
While everyone was debating the merits of Adebayor or Soldado, Harry Kane kept his head down and very quietly emerged into a club legend.
This guy has got a similar vibe about him.
This guy has got a similar vibe about him.