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Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by WindyCOYS, 24 Jul 2018.
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Spurs under 23’s 2-1 Leicester City: (match report)
They are still giving Roles games, which suggests it’s not Roles refusing to sign a new deal doesn’t it? Normal MO is to freeze kids out that are refusing to sign, no?
Honestly Windy, I'm so fucked off with the situation right now. I could just about forgive the way Edwards, Onomah, KWP have been treated if we'd gone out and bought Mbappé, Tolisso and *insert hot young RB* but to piss away their potential on the likes of Moura, Sissoko and Aurier is very disappointing.
And here's the thing, no manager has got the leeway to do that and fail than Pochettino. He's got so much credit in the bank, so much kudos at this club with Levy, that if he had introduced them and they'd all failed and we ended up 6th this year, he wouldn't have got the sack, unlike a couple of his predecessors.
If he'd succeeded we get three good players - even if they turn out not world beaters, they wouldn't have to have developed much to be at least as useful as Moura, Sissoko and Aurier - we would have had 150m in fee and wages to use on better players, and maybe even recouped some/all of that from selling on those three kids as and when.
Piss poor management of resources IMO. Making Poch de facto head of recruitment was a huge mistake (but I think Levy had to give him seething he wouldn't get at places like RM) that has backfired on Pochettino himself mostly. If someone like Klopp (and even Guardiola) can accept working as head coach and having a DOF/recruitment analytics team, then I don't see why Poch can't accept it.
There should be someone over him saying "look, we don't need to spend 25m and another 20m in wages on Aurier, who will need developing too, let's give KWP this season as back up" and then see where we are.
With out current reign and their reluctance to give youth a run, what are your thoughts on Cirkin making it? I keep hearing his name. There has to be 1 of these kids that make it, it’s just percentages. TOB was talked about and now it seems he has regressed or the comp has just caught up to him.
Cirkin is in the first year of the Academy - and looking great, especially now he's had a few games in u23's under his belt and showing he can compete with older youngsters.
Skipp is one year older but his physical development looks closer to the average 20 or even 21 year old which is why he's now involved in the first team, whilst Cirkin is nowhere near as physically developed so doubt we will see much of Cirkin being in Poch sights for a couple of years, probably in pre-season first. Almost certainly not in this year's pre-season and even the following year might be optimistic - but that will depend on how Cirkin fares next season
The sad thing is there are ways to position things.
Levy doesn't need to say 'I'm appointing a Sporting Director (or whatever) to deal with recruitment'. It could be easier for Levy to sit down with Poch to run through the current squad and without being personal point out that the majority of times most of the first team Poch plays had already been recruited before Poch joined (which justifies changes being needed), and suggest someone to work alongside Poch on recruitment (probably less confrontational to have that person not as a football man but a deal makes).....with an expanded Transfer committee also looking at development in place including DL.
Loads of different ways to address these things so that Poch doesn't fell he's been demoted (most Sporting Directors sit above the coach which maybe why Poch isn't keen) but introducing more of a collegiate player transfer/development system where Poch retains a final say - but has a lot of advisors around him.
I think once you've given the coach the transfer reigns, it's very hard to take them back without it appearing like you've lost faith in his ability to recruit.
I agree, it could be addressed as "Pochettino has decided he needs a DOF" because the job is too much for one man etc...
But I am just not sure Poch would wear it, especially as he thinks he has RM and ManU after him.
Don't forget Belgian league too for Sander Berge.
Poch has done such a great job that he is probably in a position of too much power. On the face of it he does not have a great record of picking players, although these days we really don’t know who is responsible for signings at any club. People will take credit for good ones, of course.
The bulk of our best players were there when he arrived.
Most youth watchers on this and other sites don’t think his boy should be kept on for next season, I will be surprised if he isn’t.
Let him eat cake.
Agreed with the first sentence, hence it has to be done very diplomatically.
And IMO without introducing anyone with a Director title (other than Daniel) into the organisation/structure as that's what Poch will be absolutely against
But in some respects we are reaching a crisis point in that we need to be introducing players into the first team squad of whom a number need to be either far better now or with much higher potential than players recruited in the last 4 years.....and without spending a fortune......especially if we need to replace Eriksen and Alderweireld as we have too many already in the squad who are 'ok' rather than top 3 or 4 quality (either now or that potential). And I suspect Poch knows that too.....which is why if handled right I think Poch would accept it
I'd be surprised if Poch junior is not offered a one year pro contract like most of his year group.
After that it may become a bit more of an issue. But I seem to recall both Fergie and Clough moved their sons on to other teams....and aged say 19 that's easier than if they are 16 or 17
Pochettino may view it as an insult, but fuck him.
If he thinks he's the messiah, he only has to look at his history to refute that fallacy.
The one thing you can give him is that he certainly knows what to say, very eloquent. But the proof's in the pudding, and Poch has won nothing, presided over numerous bottlings, failed transfer decisions and failed to promote youth.
If he's going to achieve anything at all, he needs a new head in his team or overseeing his decisions. After 5 years, there isn't enough evidence to state that he will be able to win anything on his own. He's not learning fast enough, if he's even learning at all.
I think no one would care if Poch talked about youth like AVB or Redknapp, but it's that he keeps fucking pretending that he is some sort of youth messiah which rubs the wrong way.
In terms of giving youth a chance, and in terms of any/all of his media-friendly youth quotes, he is a hypocrite and a fraud. Before the incoming bash, read the previous line again.
Most of the credit he's given via pundits and media are because he happened to be managing Spurs at the time Kane became a global superstar. The only player he's really developed is Winks. From 18 years old and bringing him on in Europa League games and Premeir League games to starting 5 years later.
He can't expect to do that with every promising youth player though. Not everyone has THAT attitude. THAT desire to wait it out for their chance. If KWP wasn't a Spurs fan, I think he probably would have left by now.
I DO think he gives more youth a chance than all the other teams in the top 6 (The bigger you are as a team, the harder it really is to promote youth and play them), in fact in the league this season no one besides Poch has started anyone under the age of 19 - Foden for example is very highly rated, yet Skipp has started more league games than him this season for example. And that's more down to the squads they're involved in.
But yeah - overall, he doesn't give academy products a chance any more than your average Premier League manager. I do think the lack of loans is a worrying thing. These guys NEED to develop by not just playing consistently but playing mens football at ANY level.
Agree with the vast majority of what you say although of the top teams I think Liverpool and ManU give more of their youth a chance than Spurs - although like all clubs that mainly comes when there are injuries to the first team squad.
Part of the difference maybe that Poch would prefer to really run the first team playing squad almost into the ground before picking the youngster - and its that bit which grates with me. I'd cite Skipp coming into the team as an example of that, where we were really struggling with injuries at CM and Poch picks Skipp who had excelled in pre-season.
Its a shame that Poch didn't give any chance to say Roles when with Son in South Korea and Dele injured with several games a week we were really struggling for first team AM's for a week or two.
IMO its just that bit of learning Poch needs to do which says have in mind the top 6 youth products available and before things get to a critical stage with injuries to first team squad introduce the appropriate one as back up.
I know its said that age 22 is the ideal time for them to be a first team regular - but equally its nuts not to give a few a run out in the age of say 19 to 21, both to help develop them as well as keep them from leaving to go to European teams who will play them.
Its frustrating as with relatively minor changes (plus Poch agreeing loans as we cannot possibly play the maybe 6 - 8 top youngsters available in the 19-21 age groups) to Poch's policy we could have a great stream of youngsters coming through which both augments the first team - and gives a revenue stream to those who are not quite good enough. Its often forgotten we raised £100m or so from academy youngsters sold who were mainly developed pre Poch (but including Mason, Carroll etc who also played in Poch early days) and that £100m went to augment the transfer budget for the first team
I'm not sure Liverpool do.
Alexander-Arnold is the only one in the last 3 years they've given a consistent run in the team. Sure, they gave Camacho, Curtis Jones and Hoever a go in the FA Cup (which they lost), but we also gave Skipp, Marsh and Eyoma a chance in the FA Cup too..
Man Utd have given their youngsters time off the bench under OGS in the same way Poch has given the likes of Onomah, Winks and Skipp time off the bench. Hasn't started any of them though. Greenwood, Gomes, Chong, Garner all given games from the bench. And again, Skipp, Marsh, Eyoma, Amos and Sterling have all been given game time from us this season off the bench.
I think it's worth noting that a successful academy isn't based on how many academy products make the first team but how many go on to make a successful career from professional football, mostly at the top level and we do a VERY good job at that. We even had 4 academy graduates on the pitch at the Nou Camp in the Champions League (Rose, KWP, Winks, Kane). I like that Poch always tries to have a graduate in the squad. Throughout his first season we regularly saw 5 academy graduates in our starting eleven (Rose, Bentaleb, Mason, Townsend, Kane) which is an incredible achievement.
Weird though isnt it - when Man Utd do it and put academy prospects on the bench it's "Doing things the Man Utd away" etc. but when we do it, it's because we lack depth.
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