Spurs Youth 2018/19

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A point I have made before, so might be boring, but Poch seems to prefer to take on youngsters who have played a bit elsewhere before they come under his tutelage.

So the likes of Kane Bentaleb and many others with some playing time behind them got Poch attention and there is no doubt Poch improved them.

But of the ones who have come through the academy only Winks has come through without any previous playing time with anyone else in the 5 years he's been here - obviously we hope for more including Skipp, KWP and maybe Amos....but I suspect the likes of Onomah and Edwards may not. Plenty of other potential candidates such as Jamie Bowden who has been 19th man a few times now. But the bare stats of only Winks making it in 5 years doesn't give me confidence.

Given Poch liking for taking on youngsters with some experience I'd like to see Spurs sending a few to clubs trusted to train the kids - maybe Portsmouth where Kenny Jackett is manager ( and coached at Spurs for s few months before taking the job), decent manager who started the Swansea revolution before the likes of Rogers and Martinez. In other words a few relationships such as we had with Swindon s few years ago.

But of course Poch said he is not in favour of loans , although that seems to have been relaxed a bit.

But if he is not going to embrace loans I think we need to buy s few raw youngsters such as Dan James (Swansea) for Poch to develop whilst sending many of the academy 18 year olds out permanently keeping only a select few ( Parrott White Cirkin Bennett......).

In other words solve the problems of what to do with youngsters from 18 to 21 which we are further from solving than pre Poch, alarmingly.

Btw agreed on Loftus Cheek but he is almost the stereotypical Chelsea youth player and as you say may not be great but will certainly make a career in PL
Next season will be definitive on the Loan vs Remain situation. Whilst making an apparent u-turn (I've no problem with him doing so) on his previous stance on not loaning players by sending out a number of them out on loan, only if they return and are in the squad next season will we see if this change is indeed genuine (again I've no problem if it's not) so long as there is a group of a min 5 players all given the opportunity to show what they have.
 

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Next season will be definitive on the Loan vs Remain situation. Whilst making an apparent u-turn (I've no problem with him doing so) on his previous stance on not loaning players by sending out a number of them out on loan, only if they return and are in the squad next season will we see if this change is indeed genuine (again I've no problem if it's not) so long as there is a group of a min 5 players all given the opportunity to show what they have.
Maybe.

But this seasons loaners ( provided I haven't forgotten too many )were :
Cameron Carter Vickers - played over ,30 games
Connor Ogilvie - played over 30 games
Marcus Edwards - played over 20 games
Joshua Onomah - played about a dozen games, so few due to injuries
Shayon Harrison - played about a dozen games
Kaziah Sterling - played a handful of games
Sam Sashoua - played over 30 games
Anthony Georgiou - played a number of games for both B side and first team


Not sure Poch would have learned much from the loans which he didn't know already except perhaps :
Edwards can play first team football, track back ( previously a weak spot) and live away from home. Is that enough for Poch
Sashoua looks a good prospect although still small but probably needs to prove it against better players/ better league
Georgiou is no worse than N'Koudou but s lot cheaper
Onomah' injuries meant nothing learned unfortunately.
 

WindyCOYS

The Fighting Cock
Maybe.

But this seasons loaners ( provided I haven't forgotten too many )were :
Cameron Carter Vickers - played over ,30 games
Connor Ogilvie - played over 30 games
Marcus Edwards - played over 20 games
Joshua Onomah - played about a dozen games, so few due to injuries
Shayon Harrison - played about a dozen games
Kaziah Sterling - played a handful of games
Sam Sashoua - played over 30 games
Anthony Georgiou - played a number of games for both B side and first team


Not sure Poch would have learned much from the loans which he didn't know already except perhaps :
Edwards can play first team football, track back ( previously a weak spot) and live away from home. Is that enough for Poch
Sashoua looks a good prospect although still small but probably needs to prove it against better players/ better league
Georgiou is no worse than N'Koudou but s lot cheaper
Onomah' injuries meant nothing learned unfortunately.
I was about to come here and say this. And each player had at least a year of stagnation prior to their loan rather than being sent out when they were in peak form or an upward trajectory. The real test would be signing Binks and Parrott and Roles to long-term contracts and send *them* out on loan next season, then seeing what happens when they're brought back.
 
Maybe.

But this seasons loaners ( provided I haven't forgotten too many )were :
Cameron Carter Vickers - played over ,30 games
Connor Ogilvie - played over 30 games
Marcus Edwards - played over 20 games
Joshua Onomah - played about a dozen games, so few due to injuries
Shayon Harrison - played about a dozen games
Kaziah Sterling - played a handful of games
Sam Sashoua - played over 30 games
Anthony Georgiou - played a number of games for both B side and first team


Not sure Poch would have learned much from the loans which he didn't know already except perhaps :
Edwards can play first team football, track back ( previously a weak spot) and live away from home. Is that enough for Poch
Sashoua looks a good prospect although still small but probably needs to prove it against better players/ better league
Georgiou is no worse than N'Koudou but s lot cheaper
Onomah' injuries meant nothing learned unfortunately.
I don't think he's learned a lot TBH.
Possibly only Edwards & Sashoua have grown/developed/learned. With Edwards, we can hope he's turned into a man.

All of which adds more weight to keeping our players than loaning them if you ask me. I think the biggest development is them as people/men rather than the game (obviously for them personally it's so much more fun if you are playing).
 
I don't think he's learned a lot TBH.
Possibly only Edwards & Sashoua have grown/developed/learned. With Edwards, we can hope he's turned into a man.

All of which adds more weight to keeping our players than loaning them if you ask me. I think the biggest development is them as people/men rather than the game (obviously for them personally it's so much more fun if you are playing).
Keeping them in-house always sounds intuitively sensible.

However when it's for a 3 year period from 18/19 through to 22 ( as KWP) training but playing minimal games ) that's where it seems to go wrong. Not playing means the players stagnate and even go backwards. - which is what I think has happened to KWP as he no longer seems to dribble forward as much as he used to etc. Of course if he has a run of games maybe his u18 persona ( new and improved of course from training) will reappear. But he's not had that run of games yet.....will he next year ?
 
Keeping them in-house always sounds intuitively sensible.

However when it's for a 3 year period from 18/19 through to 22 ( as KWP) training but playing minimal games ) that's where it seems to go wrong. Not playing means the players stagnate and even go backwards. - which is what I think has happened to KWP as he no longer seems to dribble forward as much as he used to etc. Of course if he has a run of games maybe his u18 persona ( new and improved of course from training) will reappear. But he's not had that run of games yet.....will he next year ?
I completely get this side of the argument and it could well be correct (it will always have individual nuances involved of cause) but let's say IF we say bin off Frodo in the summer and don't buy an RB because Poch thinks he's ready (bassed on his minutes he doesn't think he is) but lets say that's the plan all along???

I know that I'm possibly behind the curve on this one but as it stands it's not clear to me whether the players out on loan at Spurs will get into Spurs on their return. And I say again, every player that Poch has let leave from the academy hasn't proved him wrong so far.

*caveat to that is absolutely the nonsense purchases of GKN, N'Koudo, Janssen etc... when an academy player could have done no worse. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.
 

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I completely get this side of the argument and it could well be correct (it will always have individual nuances involved of cause) but let's say IF we say bin off Frodo in the summer and don't buy an RB because Poch thinks he's ready (bassed on his minutes he doesn't think he is) but lets say that's the plan all along???

I know that I'm possibly behind the curve on this one but as it stands it's not clear to me whether the players out on loan at Spurs will get into Spurs on their return. And I say again, every player that Poch has let leave from the academy hasn't proved him wrong so far.

*caveat to that is absolutely the nonsense purchases of GKN, N'Koudo, Janssen etc... when an academy player could have done no worse. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Anything is possible but I think Poch is on good enough terms with Levy to get a new RB - after all he got Airier. I just don't understand Poch on KWP unless it's that he thinks KWP needs to put on more muscle - in which case KWP will be in he gym s lot this summer.

If Poch wanted a new RB but levy said money was tight, I'd happily take back Steven Carr based on his legends performance !

Re the ex academy kids, I think it was a mistake to release Milos Veljkovic who has since forged a good career in Germany and went to WC with Switzerland. Imo perfect for Spurs - only thing that didnt meet the Poch template was Milos bring so good at reading the game he never needed to run round much.

Massimo Luongo might be a bit more border line ,- now captain of QPR but I think with more coaching could have done much better.

And given our issues at RB I'm not sure whether it was wise to ditch Ryan Fredericks in Poch first TW at Spurs - wouldn't he still be reasonable as a back up RB or right wing ( no need to buy GKN) ! And David Button if not released would still be viable as an HG 3rd GK.
 
FWIW - I don't think Loftus-Cheek is that technical a player, I'd go so far as to say he lacks the technical ability of a top player. I think it's his size and physical ability that got him to this point in his career but to my eyes, he's got all the finesse of Sissoko. He will have a successful career (in monetary terms) but he'll be a Walcott or a Towsend, I think pundits will be debating where his best position is for the next decade, avoiding the fact that he might not be as technically good as he's hyped up to be. (he'll now go on to be the next Ronaldo).
That reads like a Pochettino wish list
 
Anything is possible but I think Poch is on good enough terms with Levy to get a new RB - after all he got Airier. I just don't understand Poch on KWP unless it's that he thinks KWP needs to put on more muscle - in which case KWP will be in he gym s lot this summer.

If Poch wanted a new RB but levy said money was tight, I'd happily take back Steven Carr based on his legends performance !

Re the ex academy kids, I think it was a mistake to release Milos Veljkovic who has since forged a good career in Germany and went to WC with Switzerland. Imo perfect for Spurs - only thing that didnt meet the Poch template was Milos bring so good at reading the game he never needed to run round much.

Massimo Luongo might be a bit more border line ,- now captain of QPR but I think with more coaching could have done much better.

And given our issues at RB I'm not sure whether it was wise to ditch Ryan Fredericks in Poch first TW at Spurs - wouldn't he still be reasonable as a back up RB or right wing ( no need to buy GKN) ! And David Button if not released would still be viable as an HG 3rd GK.
Think we are all agreed on KWP and time will tell if remaining in the group will pay dividends.

Fredericks is a strange one. I thought he was OK to good when with us, but felt lots of promise was there. Then when he left I thought we has really poor. He had a reasonable game against us but for me, he's still not that good. Who knows, as Vaballetta's wheelchair gets more use and as a result, Fredricks gets more games that's all he needs. But the thing is, that's where some of the bigger clubs come in (we are in that bracket now) we can take him back if he turns into anything good. Sure that costs us money but so does paying him £1m a year in salary just to train or be on loan for 4yrs just to be OK.

100% agree on Veljkovic = Great player to watch, silky and could put his foot in when needed. I confess I've not seen him kick a ball since he left, so I've no idea how's he playing now.
 
I wonder if KWP hasnt played because it woukd weaken Poch's demands fir a new RWB signing with Levy.
The impression I get is that he seems pretty happy picking up 20k a week just being a 3rd choice full back. A hungrier player would have pushed for a loan. He turned down a move to Roda in 2016 because he didn't like their direct style. Quite telling really. Just seems short in a lot areas, including mentality.

I wonder sometimes if the club overlook aspects such as a player's mindset. Onomah has been slated by Villa and Wednesday fans for being, lazy, slovenly and disinterested. I don't think it's something you can coach. That desire to want to be the man to make the difference, to want to fight every minute and take responsibility. If you haven't got the right mentality, it's not worth the time investing in the player.
 

WindyCOYS

The Fighting Cock
The impression I get is that he seems pretty happy picking up 20k a week just being a 3rd choice full back. A hungrier player would have pushed for a loan. He turned down a move to Roda in 2016 because he didn't like their direct style. Quite telling really. Just seems short in a lot areas, including mentality.

I wonder sometimes if the club overlook aspects such as a player's mindset. Onomah has been slated by Villa and Wednesday fans for being, lazy, slovenly and disinterested. I don't think it's something you can coach. That desire to want to be the man to make the difference, to want to fight every minute and take responsibility. If you haven't got the right mentality, it's not worth the time investing in the player.
Lot of assumptions here and passing the blame onto the players.

If the players don't have the 'right mentality' after a decade at Spurs, what does it say about our academy?
 
Premier League 2 and the Premier League International Cup were supposed to give development opportunities at a high level without loans. Are those competitions delivering?
 
The impression I get is that he seems pretty happy picking up 20k a week just being a 3rd choice full back. A hungrier player would have pushed for a loan. He turned down a move to Roda in 2016 because he didn't like their direct style. Quite telling really. Just seems short in a lot areas, including mentality.

I wonder sometimes if the club overlook aspects such as a player's mindset. Onomah has been slated by Villa and Wednesday fans for being, lazy, slovenly and disinterested. I don't think it's something you can coach. That desire to want to be the man to make the difference, to want to fight every minute and take responsibility. If you haven't got the right mentality, it's not worth the time investing in the player.
What a load of I’ll-informed bollocks.
 
Premier League 2 and the Premier League International Cup were supposed to give development opportunities at a high level without loans. Are those competitions delivering?
No.

Edit: To elaborate: It does not reflect a proper match. There's no consequences whether you win or lose. Take a look at what Kane said about his time on loan at Milwall - there were players there who's livelyhood depended upon the results and making sure they didn't get relegated.

You can't reproduce that kind of pressure in a Premier League 2 environment. And from a skill level, I believe that all players coming through the academies of Premier League clubs are excellent. The question is, whether they can translate that skill on to the pitch when it counts.
 
Lot of assumptions here and passing the blame onto the players.

If the players don't have the 'right mentality' after a decade at Spurs, what does it say about our academy?
What a load of I’ll-informed bollocks.
Total guesswork on my part, just a feeling I have from observations. I remember watching a youth game between Liverpool and Spurs a few years ago and TAA was playing. He stood out a mile from every other player on the pitch, not just because of his ability but because of his mentality. One of the reasons I have high hopes for Troy Parrot is because you see that hunger, belief and a bit of and edge in his play. I've just never seen that in players like KWP or Onomah.
 
Total guesswork on my part, just a feeling I have from observations. I remember watching a youth game between Liverpool and Spurs a few years ago and TAA was playing. He stood out a mile from every other player on the pitch, not just because of his ability but because of his mentality. One of the reasons I have high hopes for Troy Parrot is because you see that hunger, belief and a bit of and edge in his play. I've just never seen that in players like KWP or Onomah.
Walker-Peters played in the England team that won the U20 World Cup. Could that happen if he did not have the right attitude?
 
Walker-Peters played in the England team that won the U20 World Cup. Could that happen if he did not have the right attitude?
I think TAA, two years younger than KWP, playing at the World Cup last year was a far bigger achievement. I'm not saying KWP has a bad attitude or anything, perhaps not just that X-Factor character trait that separates out some people in all walks of life, not just football.
 

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WindyCOYS

The Fighting Cock
I think TAA, two years younger than KWP, playing at the World Cup last year was a far bigger achievement. I'm not saying KWP has a bad attitude or anything, perhaps not just that X-Factor character trait that separates out some people in all walks of life, not just football.
TAA overtook KWP due to opportunity IMO.
 
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