Southampton (h) 18/19 ratings

  • There is only one thing weirder than posting on internet forums... lurking on internet forums!
    Registration only takes a minute and removes most of the adverts. You're here now, you might as well...

    Get involved!

MOTM


  • Total voters
    47

Register to remove

Rocket

Supporter
Bingo. Dier can’t press very well, he’s too clunky and slow on the turn. Ergo our performance is effected by our personnel.

Our general style ethos comes from our manager, but our ability to carry that out is absolutely effected by the ability of personnel. It’s ridiculous to say otherwise.

You don’t think we improved by swapping Dier for Wanyama in 16-17?
You mean the 16-17 season when both Wanyama and Dier played in 36 PL games each?
 
Thats odd because Dier has been part of our team when we pressed the shit out of Chelsea the last two times we played them, winning 3-1 twice.
We didn't press the shit out of Chelsea away last season, it was a mess of game that was very open.

Of course Dier's played in games where we have pressed well as a team, as has Son, who's also pretty hopeless at pressing, and Sissoko played in that Chelsea win a week ago, does that mean he can't be upgraded? Davies ?

Mason and Bentelab were the midfield pairing in a great example of team pressing when we beat Woolwich 2-1 in Poch's first full season, so should we have stuck with them and not used Dier in midfield?

Dier played 36 PL games that season
But a big chunk of those games were as a CB as both TA and JV missed games with injury and we also switched to Back 3. As well you know.


I noticed you completed ignored important parts of my post and just selectively quoted.

So are you still claiming that the quality of players we have has no bearing on our performance ?

Are you saying that we should ignore crucial performance indicators completely?
 

KickHerInTheSponge

Character, like a photograph, develops in darkness
bus-conductor bus-conductor do you have some kind of mental problem? Autism? You seem unable to be satisified unless all your stat boxes are checked and you focus intensely on nerd blogger type shit.

Football is full of mistakes and random moments. You don't need to dominate like Pep's Barca start to finish to have a good game ffs. Opposition teams will have spells no matter what.

When the wider context is considered- resources, stadium, injuries etc Spurs are doing very good.
 
bus-conductor bus-conductor do you have some kind of mental problem? Autism? You seem unable to be satisified unless all your stat boxes are checked and you focus intensely on nerd blogger type shit.

Football is full of mistakes and random moments. You don't need to dominate like Pep's Barca start to finish to have a good game ffs. Opposition teams will have spells no matter what.

When the wider context is considered- resources, stadium, injuries etc Spurs are doing very good.
Speaking as someone very much involved in autism research I find your comment to be ignorant , ill informed and unnecessary .It will cause offense to those who have children on the autistic spectrum and I suggest you please edit your post . You could make your point perfectly well without such comparisons.
 

KickHerInTheSponge

Character, like a photograph, develops in darkness
Speaking as someone very much involved in autism research I find your comment to be ignorant , ill informed and unnecessary .It will cause offense to those who have children on the autistic spectrum and I suggest you please edit your post . You could make your point perfectly well without such comparisons.
Hardly ignorant, ill informed or unnecessary. Fixating on certain things irrationally is one of the symptons of autism.

When someone calls the referee blind they're not making fun of blind people.
 

Register to remove

There are numerous symptoms of autism just like there are numerous symptoms of cancer. FYI because someone writes something that you consider ticks one of those boxes it is as stupid to say that person has autism as it is to say that everyone with hair loss has cancer or that someone who can’t remember something has dementia.
 
But a big chunk of those games were as a CB as both TA and JV missed games with injury and we also switched to Back 3. As well you know.
So you think that we came 2nd and our performances were much better with Dier at CB, despite the fact you feel that:
Dier can’t press very well, he’s too clunky and slow on the turn.
Amazing we did so well despite Dier, as opposed to he contributed massively.

I noticed you completed ignored important parts of my post and just selectively quoted.

So are you still claiming that the quality of players we have has no bearing on our performance ?

Are you saying that we should ignore crucial performance indicators completely?
No idea what youre talking about.

Who said the quality of players has no bearing on performance? No one thats right....except you perhaps, who seems to feel we can wipe the floor with Real Madrid, Chelsea twice, Woolwich, Utd, and finish 2nd and 3rd in the PL, with a crap DM.

So if we´re that good with basically ten men, you must feel that upgrading Dier would see us above City right now.
And none of it has anything to do with tactics.

Knock yourself out....writing 45 paragraphs every time doesnt make you clued up.
 

Rocket

Supporter
And if our competitors around us, above and below are improving their performance (quality) by adding better quality players then medium, long term they are more likely to come out on top.

We've finished third below Leicester and Woolwich three years ago with Dier. We then upgraded him with Wanyama and finished above everyone bar a Chelsea side without CL football (and way ahead of City). So by your reckoning we shouldn't have upgraded Dier?

Then last year Wanyama goes awol with injury, Dier plays more and we are 3rd again, behind ManU and miles behind ManC. Teams we'd finished above the previous two years.

We are now below Liverpool, a team we've finished above for most of the last few years, they improved key positions.

We are not performing as well as we were. If that continues, we will be very lucky to finish where we did when we were performing well because history tells us that few team buck performances indicators radically and for very long. Which as why the likes of ManU and Burnley are struggling this year for example. Or why Woolwich stagnated and then finished below us two years running etc.
This lot here has a counter side to the argument. Yes, both City and Liverpool, who finished below us have spent money trying to improve, and results certainly say they have. However, Woolwich, Chelsea and Man Utd, have also all finished above us over the past 3 seasons, have all spent money "upgrading" and where are they now?

All I'm saying is it's not black and white in regards to improving your squad by bringing in new players. Pochettino, or whoever else is in charge of transfers obviously hasn't identified anyone who they think will improve on what we've got for the right money. Like it or not, that's the fact of the situation. Personally I have enjoyed finishing 3, 2, 3 and currently sitting 3rd. No we're not going to win the league this year, but it's a damn sight better than the previous 20 years.
 
We didn't press the shit out of Chelsea away last season, it was a mess of game that was very open.

Of course Dier's played in games where we have pressed well as a team, as has Son, who's also pretty hopeless at pressing, and Sissoko played in that Chelsea win a week ago, does that mean he can't be upgraded? Davies ?

Mason and Bentelab were the midfield pairing in a great example of team pressing when we beat Woolwich 2-1 in Poch's first full season, so should we have stuck with them and not used Dier in midfield?



But a big chunk of those games were as a CB as both TA and JV missed games with injury and we also switched to Back 3. As well you know.


I noticed you completed ignored important parts of my post and just selectively quoted.

So are you still claiming that the quality of players we have has no bearing on our performance ?

Are you saying that we should ignore crucial performance indicators completely?
Dier can press, he's quite relentless at it too, also tends to set the tone and attitude of the team (many a time he will come out from deep midfield position and close the oppo trying to build or he will chase down oppo back to their own goal - Him on Ramos was this on steroids). Without the ball he's utterly superb, positionally knows when to come out to press and close down, or sit in. Watch the relationship he has with the CB's and other DM/CM's they switch and cover well (when one goes out the other comes in), Dier is the orchestrator of this.

Dier's biggest weakness is if he's the one being pressed (as many players are, it's a rare gem to find a player that can break a press). I think he's more than aware of this too as in PL games he will rush a pass even if he's not being pressed (maybe anticipating it happening). Wanyama (1st season) and of course the master Dembele both able to drop a shoulder and beat a press, breaking that opens up the pitch as the oppo might have committed players in that moment, which is why without a player that can do that in the middle we've not looked that attractive side this season.

You don't need to be "good" to press, it's not a skill. You need an understanding of your teammates of what the aim of the press is, a) force oppo to play the ball b) win the ball back knowing this means players should know if they are running into passing lanes or to a player 1v1. You need to be very, very fit.

It's also worth noting that we rarely press the oppo with the intent to win the ball back, most of our pressing this season and last has been trying to get the oppo to play a rushed long ball, we then focus on winning that 2nd ball back. Poch's 2nd and third season we were more focused on winning the ball in the initial press. It's this that's the biggest difference as it's fat more thrilling to watch the former rather than watching us win a header or a throw-in from that hurried long ball.
 
Dier can press, he's quite relentless at it too, also tends to set the tone and attitude of the team (many a time he will come out from deep midfield position and close the oppo trying to build or he will chase down oppo back to their own goal - Him on Ramos was this on steroids). Without the ball he's utterly superb, positionally knows when to come out to press and close down, or sit in. Watch the relationship he has with the CB's and other DM/CM's they switch and cover well (when one goes out the other comes in), Dier is the orchestrator of this.

Dier's biggest weakness is if he's the one being pressed (as many players are, it's a rare gem to find a player that can break a press). I think he's more than aware of this too as in PL games he will rush a pass even if he's not being pressed (maybe anticipating it happening). Wanyama (1st season) and of course the master Dembele both able to drop a shoulder and beat a press, breaking that opens up the pitch as the oppo might have committed players in that moment, which is why without a player that can do that in the middle we've not looked that attractive side this season.

You don't need to be "good" to press, it's not a skill. You need an understanding of your teammates of what the aim of the press is, a) force oppo to play the ball b) win the ball back knowing this means players should know if they are running into passing lanes or to a player 1v1. You need to be very, very fit.

It's also worth noting that we rarely press the oppo with the intent to win the ball back, most of our pressing this season and last has been trying to get the oppo to play a rushed long ball, we then focus on winning that 2nd ball back. Poch's 2nd and third season we were more focused on winning the ball in the initial press. It's this that's the biggest difference as it's fat more thrilling to watch the former rather than watching us win a header or a throw-in from that hurried long ball.
I disagree about it not being a skill, I very much think it is. I remember reading Morgan Schniederlin talking about how Pochettino moved his pressing onto another level by teaching him how to press properly. Lallana also described how Poch worked on pressing with the team. It's a skill that is applied individually and collectively. People like Bielsa, Guardiola, Favre (now at Dortmund) would stop training sessions and move players two inches and correct their body shapes and weight balance when pressing.

I'd say you don't have to be a robust or a great tackler to press well. Eriksen is actually one of our best pressers, better than Son (who's shit at it) and Alli (who can tackle, but has taken ages to get the hang of pressing properly) because Eriksen uses intelligence when doing it.

I also disagree completely about Dier's ability to press. He can press, especially when he's got support and we are doing it collectively - but he can't press very well compared to those who are really good at it, he's just not physically designed for it, can't change direction quick enough, and so often when he commits to it he gets spun and he's out the game, and he's normally very reactive, where players like Kante and Wanyama (prime) can proactively hunt down their prey. He also drops off in performance horribly in the latter stages of games, often retreats way to far and drags every one back 10 years with him.

The showboating tackles (like Ramos) might get the crowd on his side - like his silly bollocks Sunday - but I'd much rather he just focused on pressing properly and not panicking under pressure.

I agree with the part about being pressed, so many times (like Sunday) when we are under the squeeze he's a complete passenger.

Even when not being pressed, his passing is so rudementary.

I think he's a crowd pleaser, because he puts in a big hit every now then, but give me a tenacious busy cunt who quietly goes about his business but can actually play a bit of football under pressure any day.
 
Last edited:
This lot here has a counter side to the argument. Yes, both City and Liverpool, who finished below us have spent money trying to improve, and results certainly say they have. However, Woolwich, Chelsea and Man Utd, have also all finished above us over the past 3 seasons, have all spent money "upgrading" and where are they now?

All I'm saying is it's not black and white in regards to improving your squad by bringing in new players. Pochettino, or whoever else is in charge of transfers obviously hasn't identified anyone who they think will improve on what we've got for the right money. Like it or not, that's the fact of the situation. Personally I have enjoyed finishing 3, 2, 3 and currently sitting 3rd. No we're not going to win the league this year, but it's a damn sight better than the previous 20 years.
I very much don't believe it's all black and white, or just about "spending lots of money", I pretty much believe the reverse, but I do think our performances are suffering, I think having two or three of this leagues most productive offensive players is disguising some deep flaws, the most gaping of which is our midfield. We have always been a possession side, usually in the top 2, averaging 57/58%. We are now 5th averaging 54%. Our expected points (xP) based on our xg/xga is 8 better than it should be. If we were playing a more pragmatic, counter attacking game, not allowing the opposition chances, I'd be less concerned, but we aren't, we are clearly trying to do "our thing" but not very well.

I don't think we have to spend a fortune to upgrade Dier. I don't even necessarily think we have to spend at all. But we need to d something because I don't think we can keep keep outscoring our performance metrics forever, teams rarely do.
 
Last edited:
So you think that we came 2nd and our performances were much better with Dier at CB, despite the fact you feel that:


Amazing we did so well despite Dier, as opposed to he contributed massively.
I don't think it, we were better with Wanyama in midfield instead of Dier. Hardly anyone would debate that. We had our best league season since 1961, absolutely caned teams on the way.

I think Dier did contribute to that, but as a CB, where I think he is much better suited, with the game in front of him and his remit simplified.

Who said the quality of players has no bearing on performance? No one thats right....except you perhaps, who seems to feel we can wipe the floor with Real Madrid, Chelsea twice, Woolwich, Utd, and finish 2nd and 3rd in the PL, with a crap DM.

So if we´re that good with basically ten men, you must feel that upgrading Dier would see us above City right now.
And none of it has anything to do with tactics.

Knock yourself out....writing 45 paragraphs every time doesnt make you clued up.
OK, maybe I misunderstood. You said:

Our style of play is not down to personnel.
Our general ethos -or style if you want to call it that - is driven by Pochettino, but our ability to perform that style/ethos/coaching on match day is influenced by our personnel.

You complain about us not pressing, I hate the fact that we lack intensity (and I don't just mean one showboat tackle - I mean relentless energetic tenacity - and tempo and transition slowly. But we play plodders in midfield (Dier), which will influence both those things.
 
I disagree about it not being a skill, I very much think it is. I remember reading Morgan Schniederlin talking about how Pochettino moved his pressing onto another level by teaching him how to press properly. Lallana also described how Poch worked on pressing with the team. It's a skill that is applied individually and collectively. People like Bielsa, Guardiola, Favre (now at Dortmund) would stop training sessions and move players two inches and correct their body shapes and weight balance when pressing.

I'd say you don't have to be a robust or a great tackler to press well. Eriksen is actually one of our best pressers, better than Son (who's shit at it) and Alli (who can tackle, but has taken ages to get the hang of pressing properly) because Eriksen uses intelligence when doing it.

I also disagree completely about Dier's ability to press. He can press, especially when he's got support and we are doing it collectively - but he can't press very well compared to those who are really good at it, he's just not physically designed for it, can't change direction quick enough, and so often when he commits to it he gets spun and he's out the game, and he's normally very reactive, where players like Kante and Wanyama (prime) can proactively hunt down their prey. He also drops off in performance horribly in the latter stages of games, often retreats way to far and drags every one back 10 years with him.

The showboating tackles (like Ramos) might get the crowd on his side - like his silly bollocks Sunday - but I'd much rather he just focused on pressing properly and not panicking under pressure.

I agree with the part about being pressed, so many times (like Sunday) when we are under the squeeze he's a complete passenger.

Even when not being pressed, his passing is so rudementary.

I think he's a crowd pleaser, because he puts in a big hit every now then, but give me a tenacious busy cunt who quietly goes about his business but can actually play a bit of football under pressure any day.
Ask yourself why Dier ever gets selected to play for Spurs???!!!?? Spurs, that pressing team. For someone, so shit at it, it's an absolute miracle how he even manages a couple of games per season, let alone one of the most selected players under Poch.

ALL of our player's press, if they don't they don't play (Llorente, GKN and early doors Lucas), they HAVE to press or else they don't get selected.

I have to say you are spouting utter nonsense yet again, pressing is not a skill. You need to know and understand what the objective of the press is (win the ball back or force an error) this will no doubt form the part of the strategy for that day, set by the manager. They may well be a number of patterns that dictate what version is applied too, press high if 'XX' happens or press "mid-block" if 'YY' happens. Pressing is a TEAM thing, it can't be done individually to be truly effective, hence Lallana's comments. I'm guessing Schinderlin's were also that what he had learned was exactly this, it's a matter of who, how and when. All of what Scheindlin had learned has got him absolutely fucking nowhere in his teams since leaving Southampton if it was a skill he would be able to apply this skill to his new teams.

Learning how, when and where to press is not a skill, it's an understanding, just like having a back 4 stepping up or dropping off in unison at the appropriate time, it's knowledge and communication, it's not a skill. What makes other teams better at it than others is absolutely down to the Manager of that side, it's him that decides who, how and why to press (the objective). It's him that gets the team organised how to do it, come in at an angle etc, how many go to the ball/man, who's the trigger etc.. All this has to be drilled (just like drilling the defence and their high-line).

A press isn't a tackle. It's getting your team to impose themselves on the oppo when they don't have the ball. It's getting the oppo to bend you your will by getting them to play how you direct them to.

Regarding Dier, you are literally making stuff up or confusing what a press actually is, hard to tell which.
 
Last edited:
Our general ethos -or style if you want to call it that - is driven by Pochettino, but our ability to perform that style/ethos/coaching on match day is influenced by our personnel.

You complain about us not pressing, I hate the fact that we lack intensity (and I don't just mean one showboat tackle - I mean relentless energetic tenacity - and tempo and transition slowly. But we play plodders in midfield (Dier), which will influence both those things.
So we don’t press often because Dier isn’t good at it?
Yet when we press, we are excellent. Even with Dier in the team.

Our style and ethos is on Poch, but it’s not him telling us when to press, and when to concede possession as a tactic?

It’s a case of Poch wants us to press all the time, but 75% of games, we don’t and that’s because Dier is a plodder.

But not in the games we do press, then he’s good at it all of a sudden.
Or he’s not good at it, but the whole team can suddenly perform with high intensity even though he’s there on the pitch, just like he was the week before when nobody pressed.

Makes sense
 

Ginolaflair

BLEEDER OF BLUE & WHITE
Selections

With Vertonghen suspended, Alderweireld came back in and partnered Foyth. Rose and Trippier came in for Aurier and Davies, this was almost certainly just about rotation, but both Aurier and Davies had been pretty unhinged at the weekend. In midfield, Winks came in for Sissoko, who’d been labouring against both Inter and Woolwich. In the forward area Alli, who was very insipid at Woolwich, was replaced by Moura.

These changes all seemed pretty logical to me. I think a criticism of Pochettino in season’s past has been has lack of willing to rotate his “favourites” and we’ve seen Eriksen flogged to death and Alli allowed to bumble while an on form Son twiddled his thumbs on the bench.

The world cup, Asia games and a litany of injuries have forced Poch’s to re-think his rotation strategy a little I think, and I hope we reap the reward as the season goes on. And if nothing else it keeps players on their toes. Except Dier of course, who’s passion for photography almost certainly includes a dossier compromising snaps of Poch dressed as a Parisian hooker, which he’s been using for three years to guarantee a midfield place.


Structure

It was the good old Poch favourite 4231 tonight, which matched up with Southampton’s. Dier and Winks played pretty much as a double pivot, Eriksen played in his old 10/ACM role with Son and Moura the wide AM’s.


The Game

This was a really odd game, it almost had the feel of a reserve match, with neither side really showing much intensity, the game oscillating as we dominated longer spells then they had phases where they looked quite threatening. Luckily, we scored with our phases of domination, they didn’t, but we shouldn’t fool ourselves, when it comes to chances, this game could easily have finished much closer that it did – we ended up with an XG of 1.40, theirs was 1.68 and this pretty much reflected the reality, and was yet another game we just lost all control of in the second half. This was Wolves all over again, in fact it was even worse, as Southampton created more and better chances and but for terrible finishing and some good keeping this game could have got very squeaky.

At three up, you expect a little more pragmatism, be compact, work hard and just snuff out the game, keep the ball, starve the opposition, but lately we seem incapable of this kind of maturity. Son’s still flitting around like a puppy dog, doing nothing very defensively meaningful, pressing passively, tackling nobody (has anyone ever seen Son tackle anyone?) leaving Rose very exposed, Moura’s a bit zippier but also lacks discipline. I thought with the ball our midfield duo were OK, no more, but without the ball, neither were great.

Poch’s substitutions have always been a very abstract concept to me. Like a David Lynch movie without my mate Jerry Jerry to explain the plot. I really don’t understand why at 3-0 our first sub isn’t taking off one or both of our two most important players - Eriksen or Kane – not Moura, who’d played less football than anyone on that pitch in the last 14 days. And we have a busy little fucker of a midfielder on the bench who could have come on and helped sure up the midfield, and at the same time maybe giving him a good 20-25 minutes experience in a reasonably safe environment. We and he may have learnt something valuable about each other. Did Sissoko need that 15 minutes? Did we also need to risk Alli at all, especially for 10 minutes, and did a game we had lost all grip on need another talented but bumbly attacking midfielder or would the more terrier like Skipp have been tactically more astute?


Individual

Lloris – Pretty outstanding game, several very good saves.

Trippier – OK. Crossing was poor by his standards. Pressed well for the third goal.

Foyth – Decent enough game

Alderweireld – Good game

Rose – First game back for a while, so bound to be rusty but pretty ropey game to be honest, offensively offered almost nothing and defensively was really shoddy at times. Didn’t get much help for Son at times either.

Dier – Uninspiring

Winks – OK/Meh - To be fair, playing with Dier would send anyone into a transcendental super.

Moura – Flitted about, took his goal well, but I’m struggling to think of anything else creatively tangible to hang a hat on.

Eriksen – A pretty standard game. Saw plenty of the ball, helped us tick over, hand in a goal.

Son – Was lively enough when we had the ball and posed some questions, good run for the goal, but a bit flakey when we don’t have the ball.

Kane – Good ball for Son’s goal, but otherwise a pretty poor game truth be told. Didn’t see enough ball, even when we were dominating, and didn’t work too hard without it. I think we could have rested him today and started Son up front.
You must have a masochistic streak in you mate cos most people on here think that you're a pretentious dullard...
 
Ask yourself why Dier ever gets selected to play for Spurs???!!!?? Spurs, that pressing team. For someone, so shit at it, it's an absolute miracle how he even manages a couple of games per season, let alone one of the most selected players under Poch.

ALL of our player's press, if they don't they don't play (Llorente, GKN and early doors Lucas), they HAVE to press or else they don't get selected.
That’s funny, because last week you were telling me Trippier can't press?

I think one of the reasons Dier is getting so many games in midfield the last year or so is the loss of Wanyama and Dembele and no viable alternatives, because he definitely became third choice the season before that and found himself playing more often as a CB.

It’s like you haven’t watched us lately. We definitely aren’t that pressing team any more.

And I agree completely, it is an effective approach if it is done collectively. That’s the point. We press, but its rarely done in an intense, cohesive, top to bottom way throughout games, or even for spells of games anymore, which is why our games have become messy, open and very uncontrolled affairs, relying far more individual components than a collective cohesion.

Poch may want all our players to press, but they certainly don't all do it well, and we certainly don't do it collectively well any more - not consistently anyway. Son is fucking shit at it. Alli's improved gradually but is still hit and miss. Moura seems to do it in bursts, but rarely in tandem with anyone else. Dier and Sissoko charge around reacting to things, Winks isn't great at it either.

I know Poch wants us to do it, but his selections are often counter-intuitive to us doing it well collectively and consistently. It's why Ive said he'd be better off trying to integrate a couple of our academy players, that's how he got us doing it in the first place, they brought some hunger, aggression and intensity.
 

Register to remove

That’s funny, because last week you were telling me Trippier can't press?

I think one of the reasons Dier is getting so many games in midfield the last year or so is the loss of Wanyama and Dembele and no viable alternatives, because he definitely became third choice the season before that and found himself playing more often as a CB.

It’s like you haven’t watched us lately. We definitely aren’t that pressing team any more.

And I agree completely, it is an effective approach if it is done collectively. That’s the point. We press, but its rarely done in an intense, cohesive, top to bottom way throughout games, or even for spells of games anymore, which is why our games have become messy, open and very uncontrolled affairs, relying far more individual components than a collective cohesion.

Poch may want all our players to press, but they certainly don't all do it well, and we certainly don't do it collectively well any more - not consistently anyway. Son is fucking shit at it. Alli's improved gradually but is still hit and miss. Moura seems to do it in bursts, but rarely in tandem with anyone else. Dier and Sissoko charge around reacting to things, Winks isn't great at it either.

I know Poch wants us to do it, but his selections are often counter-intuitive to us doing it well collectively and consistently. It's why Ive said he'd be better off trying to integrate a couple of our academy players, that's how he got us doing it in the first place, they brought some hunger, aggression and intensity.
I said Tripper can't play out of a press. You know when Tottenham HAVE THE BALL.
 
Top Bottom