Mauricio Pochettino

[YidoBuckler]

I don't want the bloke to be sacked but it doesn't mean he is exempt from criticism. Everything seems to be so black and white with a lot of fans when realistically there is much more to everything. I also don't see why there are certain agendas against certain posters who keep giving honest opinions and are regularly called out for it. We aren't all going to agree thats a bit obvious.

The thing is I think Poch was starting to win a few people over with a couple of wins, some 'decent' performances and now he's back to square one again after this latest fuck up. "One step forward, two steps back" is the phrase that springs to mind. Hopefully the crowd tomorrow will get behind the team regardless, as we did on Wednesday night, and we can at least give a good fucking go at getting something from Man City, as lets be honest any point(s) we get will be a bonus. I'm not convinced he's got a tactical plan in him to get anything off City though so I hope he proves me wrong.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

OK, lets see if we end up on the goal difference (you know, goals scored - goals against) that xG is suggesting for us based on those stats then. Because in very simple terms it seems we should be scoring about a third more than we concede. Generally the teams fighting it out for 4th gain around 65 goals a season, so that'll mean we should end on c.+20.

Nice that clubs and bookies use xG, it's probably the best for what it is. Unfortunately I don't think it's particularly strong for modelling Spurs. But hey, what do I know eh?

Your claim it doesn't accurately model Spurs because it doesn't factor in our high line is non-sensical. It measures the quality of shots taken. Therefore it measures the effect of the high line because it reflects the shot quality we concede due to that high line.

We'll see where we end the year. I think expected goals has a pretty clear track record in predicting future results. Variance happens, and it's all premised on the reality that "shit happens", but I think we're actually playing like a good team right now, and think that will continue.

 

[gibbs131]

I'm not interested in getting one over on Woolwich. That's small time. I want us to be BETTER than them.

We are better than them player/team wise. The only thing that stopped us from savaging them is we have a green manager who's playing silly buggers with lineups and tactics.

And 'not interested in getting one over on Woolich" is still a headshaker. Totti! Sort it out! There is a time and a place for long term plans...NLD is not one of them.

 

[The Yinzer]

Your claim it doesn't accurately model Spurs because it doesn't factor in our high line is non-sensical. It measures the quality of shots taken. Therefore it measures the effect of the high line because it reflects the shot quality we concede due to that high line.

We'll see where we end the year. I think expected goals has a pretty clear track record in predicting future results. Variance happens, and it's all premised on the reality that "shit happens", but I think we're actually playing like a good team right now, and think that will continue.

I don't pretend to understand the stats, but your interpretation is matching what I've been seeing. We've been a little better than our results so far would indicate in my view. (Of course we haven't yet played many teams you'd expect to be near the top of the table.)

 

[LLB Part Deux]

Your claim it doesn't accurately model Spurs because it doesn't factor in our high line is non-sensical. It measures the quality of shots taken. Therefore it measures the effect of the high line because it reflects the shot quality we concede due to that high line.

I can see we're not going to agree here. I don't belive it does accurately measure the quality of shots, because it doesn't factor in enough variables related to the defensive side of the game.

I don't disagree that we're playing some OK football at times, but hugely disagree that we're anywhere near as good as xG suggests, and my hypothesis is that the model needs to be refined with some added defence related variables (distance to defenders, number of defenders within 90 degree cone of direction, which direction the defence is moving etc) which I would consider to have a high model co-efficient.

As you say, we'll have a look again later in the season when there will be more sample available to improve the confidence level of the data, and if Spurs are doing as well as xG suggest we should be doing then I'll back down. Until then, it's just another developing predictive model that I see week-in, week-out in my industry (return on investment focused market research).

 

[jimmyriggle]

I don't want the bloke to be sacked but it doesn't mean he is exempt from criticism. Everything seems to be so black and white with a lot of fans when realistically there is much more to everything. I also don't see why there are certain agendas against certain posters who keep giving honest opinions and are regularly called out for it. We aren't all going to agree thats a bit obvious.

The thing is I think Poch was starting to win a few people over with a couple of wins, some 'decent' performances and now he's back to square one again after this latest fuck up. "One step forward, two steps back" is the phrase that springs to mind. Hopefully the crowd tomorrow will get behind the team regardless, as we did on Wednesday night, and we can at least give a good fucking go at getting something from Man City, as lets be honest any point(s) we get will be a bonus. I'm not convinced he's got a tactical plan in him to get anything off City though so I hope he proves me wrong.

Very true. I was very critical of his selection and am still annoyed but I don't want the bloke sacked.

 

[Eskimo]

Our best football under redknapp was in his 3rd season. It was very up and down before that. We finished 4th in his second season but we have to remember that city were not quite the finished deal yet and Liverpool were in free fall.

Please stop with this bollocks.

1961 only one of the big 4 finished in the top 10. Daft isnt it.

 

[TheJockmur]

We are better than them player/team wise. The only thing that stopped us from savaging them is we have a green manager who's playing silly buggers with lineups and tactics.

We're a better club than them, morally and the such. But we can't claim to be the better team until we start finishing above them. That needs to be our aim. That needs to be what we strive for. Saying we have the better players and then finishing below them constantly shows that as things stand, they're ahead of us. We need to work hard and get above them, and fight like dogs to stay there.

 

[gibbs131]

We're a better club than them, morally and the such. But we can't claim to be the better team until we start finishing above them. That needs to be our aim. That needs to be what we strive for. Saying we have the better players and then finishing below them constantly shows that as things stand, they're ahead of us. We need to work hard and get above them, and fight like dogs to stay there.

Yep. But this is a new season, new players, very young team so we can't know for sure yet whats what. I'm not even biased. I think we have a ridiculous amount of talent but to be blunt, Poch has been losing quite a few managerial battles this season so if we have a weak link, it's him.

I don't want him gone, I think he needs help. He has done a LOT of valuable stuff. Cleared out the loonies and made us a force when it comes to fitness but he's getting a lot wrong off the pitch.

He needs a new number two with more nouse in the final third.

 

[Claud601]

Spot on! I'm sick to fucking death of season after season of fans calling for the managers head. It's happens every single season under every single manager.

I'm sorry, and I don't usually resort to name calling on here, but if you hate Pochettinho and want him sacked already you are a complete cunt. There I said it.

No doubt I'll get some pelters for that but I'm fed up with this shit.

 

[Juicy Sushi]

I can see we're not going to agree here. I don't belive it does accurately measure the quality of shots, because it doesn't factor in enough variables related to the defensive side of the game.

I don't disagree that we're playing some OK football at times, but hugely disagree that we're anywhere near as good as xG suggests, and my hypothesis is that the model needs to be refined with some added defence related variables (distance to defenders, number of defenders within 90 degree cone of direction, which direction the defence is moving etc) which I would consider to have a high model co-efficient.

As you say, we'll have a look again later in the season when there will be more sample available to improve the confidence level of the data, and if Spurs are doing as well as xG suggest we should be doing then I'll back down. Until then, it's just another developing predictive model that I see week-in, week-out in my industry (return on investment focused market research).

The models I used to see when I was doing market research were a lot less robust than what I've seen being put forward in football analytics, but as you said, we'll see.

The off-the-ball defensive data (and offensive data for that matter) would be nice, but it simply does not exist in the public domain. OPTA don't do video tracking, and each club at this point only does that on their own, rather than getting from a single source who has all the data. I've seen some work suggesting how it can be measured, without that data, but all of that work is being done on a proprietary basis rather than in the public eye.

 

[sammyspurs]

Fuck sake we've lost one in the league on the first day and one other time with an understrnegth side against Woolwich where a win is never guaranteed for either side.
And people want another managerial change already?

I get he's not got is playing like 70s Brazil or even 2010 spurs, but we have to give someone more than 18 months just once!

Our best football under redknapp was in his 3rd season. It was very up and down before that. We finished 4th in his second season but we have to remember that city were not quite the finished deal yet and Liverpool were in free fall.

We've just bought a bunch of new players and our young guys seems to love playing together under poch. Can everyone stop being so alarmist. It's not even October yet. We're 1 point behind 4th place and above Chelsea. For the most part I see us dominating games without it fully clicking up top.
You'd think it was Armageddon for some here

And here we go....

Poch defence always has to turn to " Yeah but Harry Redknapp....................."

I tell you why I want Poch and Levy gone. Because results, and 5th place finishes (Whoopeeee!) aside, 9 of 10 games, Im bored fucking shitless by our shit football.

There....now run along and point out that in 3.5 seasons under Redknapp, we also played poorly a few times.
Yep, that´ll show me.

 

[webbo]

And here we go....

Poch defence always has to turn to " Yeah but Harry Redknapp....................."

I tell you why I want Poch and Levy gone. Because results, and 5th place finishes (Whoopeeee!) aside, 9 of 10 games, Im bored fucking shitless by our shit football.

There....now run along and point out that in 3.5 seasons under Redknapp, we also played poorly a few times.
Yep, that´ll show me.

What is the alternative? Would you rather a Man City style owner? Genuine question.

 

[Claud601]

And here we go....

Poch defence always has to turn to " Yeah but Harry Redknapp....................."

I tell you why I want Poch and Levy gone. Because results, and 5th place finishes (Whoopeeee!) aside, 9 of 10 games, Im bored fucking shitless by our shit football.

There....now run along and point out that in 3.5 seasons under Redknapp, we also played poorly a few times.
Yep, that´ll show me.

 

[Claud601]

 

[jimmyriggle]

And here we go....

Poch defence always has to turn to " Yeah but Harry Redknapp....................."

I tell you why I want Poch and Levy gone. Because results, and 5th place finishes (Whoopeeee!) aside, 9 of 10 games, Im bored fucking shitless by our shit football.

There....now run along and point out that in 3.5 seasons under Redknapp, we also played poorly a few times.
Yep, that´ll show me.

I only used redknapp example as that's what many poch detractors seem to be yearning for.

My personal defence of him is totally exclusive of that. Personally I'm rarely bored during any spurs match apart from maybe when we're smashing some shit lower league side in the cup.

Every kick of the ball by pulse is thumping in either anticipation of a spurs goal or fear of one from an opposition.
I don't deny that sometimes we lack an attacking cut and thrust but I think the modern game in general only has a relative handful of really exciting end to end games. I don't know how you can expect the vast majority of them to involve us.
Who is this magical manager who can make this happen at a club like spurs? I've supported us for 20 years and I'm yet to see it in a sustained and consistent way.
Look at Liverpool. Scored 100 goals and missed out on the league by a whisper thanks to happening on one world class forward (in his 3rd season) now they want the same manager out for playing shit football and not winning enough. Even a club the size of Liverpool find it hard.

The simple fact of football is, 95% of the time the teams with the most money buy the best players who are capable of playing the best or most effective football over the entire season.
We do not and can not spend the most money so we are in that group of clubs who are capable of amazing days like smashing league winning Chelsea 5-3 but equally can hit off days and lose at home to villa.

To circle back. That doesn't mean poch is immune to criticism any less than any player might be. But to demand his sacking in my opinion is incredibly short sighted and childish.

Anyway I'll leave this here

Mauricio Pochettino plays the long game as reality bites at Tottenham

 

[sammyspurs]

What is the alternative? Would you rather a Man City style owner? Genuine question.

No. I would like Levy to take the pitch side of the club a little more serious and pick a manager he can trust.
I have lost faith that he will ever stay out of that side of things due to his recent obsession with a DoF system, and the merry go round continues.

What Levy fails to realise is that a DoF is supposed to pick players and the managers can come and go, leaving a blueprint of stability.

BUT, we sell the players too, and start over, and over and over and over again.............

Id like a chairman that does what Levy does, but will simply let a manager choose his targets. and have faith in the manager he picks. Ive already said that is idealist.
Failing that, then I guess I can just hope that:
a) Poch gets things right without Levy supporting him
b) Levy picks the right guy next time

Fat chance of either IMO

 

[jimmyriggle]

Please stop with this bollocks.

1961 only one of the big 4 finished in the top 10. Daft isnt it.

Genuinely don't see your point. Are you saying that clubs stature moves around a lot so I can't compare the league now to one only 5 years ago?

The difference is the amount of money pumped into Chelsea and City AT A LOSS was totally unprecedented in the English game.
Someone else pointed out earlier, city came out of nowhere and made a tough race of 5 into 4 even tougher.

We finally cracked top 4 just before they hit the big heights.
That night we went to the Etihad and won I knew it would be tough but I always felt we had a great chance to do it.
If a similar scenario came up this year I wouldn't feel the slightest bIt confident of getting a result there.

 

[Mockers]

To circle back. That doesn't mean poch is immune to criticism any less than any player might be. But to demand his sacking in my opinion is incredibly short sighted and childish.

Totally agree with that post (great stuff) this but I've highlighted is key too and some people don't seem to be able to grasp the concept.

People have become so caught up in the tradition of sacking managers every 5 mins that they dont seem to be able to give a reasoned view.

Manger has a bad game or makes a bad signing and instead of "he fucked that up, he better learn from that" it's straight to "SACK HIM!"

I think fans frustration over the past 10-20 years has built up to a point that the idea of giving a manager time to do implement something is impossible for some and a manager that should be given 2 to 3 years MINIMUM to shape things ends up facing 20 years of frustration that he's played no part in.

Having had years of us wasting money of mercenary nearly men, not quite good enough for the top tier but an ego that suggests they are, I'm loving the direction we are starting to go in with the youth. It will take time but will be worth it. Derailing that now and bringing in a manager with totally different ideas would be so counter productive it doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[Eskimo]

Genuinely don't see your point. Are you saying that clubs stature moves around a lot so I can't compare the league now to one only 5 years ago?

The difference is the amount of money pumped into Chelsea and City AT A LOSS was totally unprecedented in the English game.
Someone else pointed out earlier, city came out of nowhere and made a tough race of 5 into 4 even tougher.

We finally cracked top 4 just before they hit the big heights.
That night we went to the Etihad and won I knew it would be tough but I always felt we had a great chance to do it.
If a similar scenario came up this year I wouldn't feel the slightest bIt confident of getting a result there.

And we hit it again 2 seasons later.... But I guess that was down to us having a better season than Chelsea? Then we changed manager and haven't had a look in since.