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Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by ChuckleShuffle, 28 Nov 2014.
I really like Winks, but imo he is a bit too sideways at times
To be fair, with him being our deepest midfielder, it's pretty much his role.
His job right now is to get the ball from our centre backs and pass out-wide to our full backs who are more advanced or usually passing to Eriksen to move the ball forward and create or to Sissoko to take it up field.
I don't think anyone can really complain about a midfielder who kept the ball 99% of the time, wasn't troubled in midfield, part of a team that kept a cleansheet and won 3-0.
Winks is PERFECT for games against the likes of Cardiff, Burnley, Huddersfield etc. in my opinion where there's not really any need for a Wanyama or Dier type in there because we've simply got a much superior team and are going to have 60%+ of the possession.
His limitations have shown against Wolves and it's telling that Pochettino hasn't started him against City or in the NLD in the league but I think a lot of that is to do with the fact he isn't a holding deep lying play-maker due to his defensive limitations but Poch has almost had no choice in the past few weeks to play Winks and play a more risky game in midfield to force teams on us knowing games will be open for us to dominate (Everton and Bournemouth especially).
I don't have access to Stat Zone but I am sure bus-conductor can tell us how many of those passes were forward. I imagine it'd be a higher number than a lot of would think.
Just found this and I don't know how accurate it is or what criteria it uses, but it's saying Winks was dispossed 0 times.
You can click on any player to get their stats.
Cardiff 0-3 Tottenham - Premier League 2018/2019 Live
He didn't make any good runs and he didn't make any penetrating passes. He needs to take more chances because anyone can recycle possession, it isn't a difficult skill.
Nor is writing crap on the internet, one which you've clearly already mastered. So Winks managed what's not a difficult skill, that is recycling possession with 95 out of 96 passes completed, as this is not a difficult skill can you please tell us the last Spurs player to complete over 90 passes in a game with a completion rate of over 98%, or indeed any player at any EPL club to have managed this not a difficult skill on any occasion in the last ten years.
It's not a not a difficult skill so producing names should be easy for you ... look forward to seeing a huge list ....
Whatever people think of winks the only way he will improve is by playing. So we will know if he has what it takes within the next few years. Useful squad player but not first 11 is my bet.
Think I brought up the comparison to Modric but I said it's the player that he should aspire to be, not that he is comparable on a level in any way. It was largely motivated by what Modric does off the ball, to have a player with his ability on the ball, it's rare that you will see such an ability (almost perfection) off the ball (and it's with this reference I made the comparison because I think Winks is really poor without the ball).
But when making a comparison it is also best done taking into account their relative age i.e. Winks is 22yrs old, best make the comparison between the two when Winks is what 25? (I never saw Modric play before he joined Spurs so can't even use that time frame as a yardstick).
Too many times I've heard him say he tries to model himself on Xavi and Iniesta, Guido. It makes me cringe.
I see Winks as squad filler, and don't think he has a long-term future here.
Had a competent game yesterday.
Has had plenty of game time recently, but at the end of the game I keep asking myself "is that it?"
I hope I'm wrong but I hope his development trajectory doesn't follow the Carroll, Mason, Bentaleb trend. We all 'willed' them to perform better but were ultimately (for one reason or other) disappointed.
I'd just like him to boss the game (as he did against RM) a little more. Still think he's a bit slight and needs to build his upper body strength so that he's less likely to be shrugged off the ball.
Give him time and games (and weights!).
He usually plays well against these teams because he gets all the time and space to pass backward and sideways at 99% success rate.
Against half decent teams that press his ability is always exposed, see Wolves 2nd half as latest example.
I don't think that it was him that said that(??), but Poch. When that sticks, then it sticks and media will be asking about that in every interview he does from now on, it will never go away (also having Spanish relatives also helps the media join the invisible dots, it's just a narrative).
Through all my criticisms of him, I think he will make it with us. 80% of the teams we play these days we are far superior and this includes him individually too. Of the other 20% he's been mixed, his best game was against Madrid I think but some of that might have been down to poor tactics of the oppo manager and/or arrogance of the team we were playing e.g Madrid. (Tripps was also super in that game but the space Marcello left behind him played into our tactics beautifully). With Winks in that Madrid game, they sat off us and didn't put any pressure on us. In addition to his off the ball stuff, I still have a few questions marks of his ability when his pressed but have seen significant improvement from when he first played, which is to be expected and hope it is continued.
For me the really interesting thing to look out for is Skipp, he is already showing that he's taking up good positions when out of possession and on the ball he's a baller (haven't quite seen that part to his game in the first team as looks to be keeping everything simple, which I'm sure that is the remit he's given by Poch).
Can't believe the negativity in here towards one of our youngest players! Wow!
Winks is a lovely little player, quick on the turn, often nicks the ball back for us, drives forward when he can, and nearly always completes most his passes. Certainly first 11 for me - I hope he continues to develop well.
Well, I dont know how they meassure that stat, but one time where he tried to run through midfield and lost the ball when trying to turn right. I am often wondering what really counts as interceptions, beeing dispossesed etc.
It would really be something if 2 seasons from now we have Winks, Skipp and Luke Amos as our central midfielders in a team challenging for the title.
Winks 41/41 (10/11 attacking third passes)
Sissoko 23/26 (11/14 attacking third)
Eriksen 16/24 (17/24 attacking third)
I don't think we can draw too many conclusions about "big" games. Worth pointing out that we didn’t play well in those games (City/NLD) without Winks and lost. And some big games he has played in have been some of our best performances of last couple of seasons (Real, Dortmund, Liverpool at home last year, Barca away) we have played well. We've been hammered by City with and without Winks, with and without Dier and Dembele.
I think people grumbling about the creativity of his passing aren’t quite getting what his role is in this structure. He sits at the base of a kind of "offensive diamond, his job is to help us play through any press, link the defence to the midfield and onwards and outwards, keep the two 8’s (Eriksen And Sissoko) fed, move the ball quickly and efficiently, and where possible to those around and ahead of him. Which he's doing, well. If he was playing where Sissoko or Eriksen was playing, he'd be tasked with providing more creativity.
A bigger issue for me is the lack of creativity and incision from Sissoko, who's playing in the advanced and creatively responsible 8 remit. Sissoko has one assist all season (Eriksen playing a similar remit has 7) and averages 0.7 key passes a game. Yesterday he didn't make one single key pass or chance created. There are 11 players in our team that average more key passes a game. Kante, a defensive player, playing an identical role, has two assists and averages 1.2 key passes a game. Sissoko has always been an attacking player, you'd think he'd be far more creative.
And it has a knock on effect on Trippier too, Sissoko's passing lacks any kind of incision or vision, I don't think Ive ever seen him play a clever pass inside a defender to put someone in behind.
He was Ok yesterday, by his standards "good", did lots of fetching and carrying well enough, carried the ball forwards a couple of times, but it's rare that anything special happens. If there's an obvious cross or pass on, he might see it, but it's hit and miss if he makes it. He hasn't played a single through ball all season (squawka) and has one pre-assist (squawka) which is the same as Winks playing as a DM pivot.
At some point people have got to stop applauding Sissoko for doing pretty ordinary stuff well enough and demanding a bit more from that position. We are sacrificing an AM to have two progressive 8's. They've got to both be creative.
To be fair, I'm not sure Winks would be the long term answer in that 8 role either, but I'd like to see us try, with Skipp given the anchor role. I think Winks's passing if he got into the role would have a bit more vim about it. Get Trippier, Son, Kane on the ball a bit quicker and in better positions.
Listen mate, I like your input but the Sissoko card you carry is overblown. You and I disagree on the quality of Trippier but I do praise him when he deserves it without any caveat "he was good but...."
Pretty much everyone but you is praising Sissoko genuinely. You always come across as if it's very reluctant and you know better whenever Sissoko is brought up. Are you so smart or are we so dumb?
Because his performances winning the ball back, getting aggressive and domineering and then leading the charge with the ball is worthy of it. And on the creativity bit, who else is there to play there first? We're down to our bare bones which is why he got the pick in the first place? Everyone knows he has limitations hence why it's a pretty universal thought among us that Spurs need a new CM or two. But until that happens I am happy with Sissoko.
The question is how Winks was able to achieve such a high pass completion rate. If you watched the game you'd know exactly how it was done. He passed the ball to Sanchez and Toby the entire game. Even my fat arse can probably do 80% if all I had to do was pass it back to the center backs against a gutless Cardiff team. Before you boast about 99% let's bring some context into the fold yeah? If Dier did the same thing people would be shitting on him for being a useless scarecrow in the middle of the field. He needs to stop being a lazy prick and start putting in long passes instead of being so predictable.
Yep, I was thinking the same thing abut the same incident.
Maybe they classed it as an attempted pass as he severly over hit the ball ?
It’s not the “ok until better” I have an issue with. I said last night he was good.
It’s the kind of stuff in bold that is the problem. Because he’s a big athletic unit there’s a misconception that he’s actually doing things better than he is. There are 12 players who average as many tackles or more a game as he does, including Eriksen, Son and Moura. There are 15 in our squad that average as many or more interceptions.
His occasional forward runs might catch the eye because the sight of a powerful athlete charging forwards promises much, gets people excited, but I posted the realities above. He isn’t creating much at all.
Despite perception, he’s really not doing anything exceptional.
So forgive me if I’m not as bowled over as some by an experienced pro footballer doing what is generally ok things...ok.
Which is what I gave acknowledged, repeatedly. It’s the bullshit hype wagon that now circles him that needs reigning in, not my appraisal of him.
I’ve caveated praise of Winks with some criticism, Alli (bumbles about), Son (capable of the sublime and the ridiculous), Moura (Fast legs slow brain), when Kane was underperforming similarly. Trippier I acknowledge he’s compromises, Rose (defensive and attacking flaws), Davies (meh too often) etc.
I’ve backed up my opinion with plenty of evidence, factual and anecdotal.
My underlying point was, in this system, Winks is pretty much doing what he supposed to, Sissoko is doing a lot less of what he’s actually supposed to. I wouldn’t actually mind Sissoko not being Kanté without the ball if he was a clever instigating type of 8, with some drive and incision but he’s not, he’s a bit hesitant and reluctant, takes no risk, creates almost nothing.
Of all the areas or players that are compromised or flawed, he’d be the easiest to upgrade IMO. We could do it without even spending money. IMO.