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Soz to bump my own thread. But were people aware of this? A Nazi flag flown above our ground and one of our own climbed the flagpole and ripped it down?
Also, Tifo Football is the best YouTube football account by a country mile.
Also, Tifo Football is the best YouTube football account by a country mile.
Yeah fairly well-known story, although if I'm honest wasn't too up on the Mussolini backdrop.
Here is the newsreel of the day:
And here is the Swasticker flying
some Sieg heil salutage
These are the German fans at the ground
Love Tifo too!
Yeah fairly well-known story, although if I'm honest wasn't too up on the Mussolini backdrop.
Here is the newsreel of the day:
And here is the Swasticker flying
some Sieg heil salutage
These are the German fans at the ground
Love Tifo too!
Canny believe I didn't know. Fairly significant story.
Only the F. A. could invite the Nazis to play England and stage it at the most Jewish ground in the country.
You couldn't make it up.
You couldn't make it up.
Probably Greyhound racing at Wemberlee that night
Agree, the most likely scenario is that those not saluteing are English and non-fascist (I doubt they are Jewish as they might not be so restrained given the proximity but who knows).
Whilst 10k German fans had made it to the game to watch and support Germany, which means that almost certainly those seen saluting in the crowd are them, it wouldn't surprise me one bit however if many in the pic saluting were also English. It's at the height (or perhaps the beginning of the end) of Oswald Mosley's fascist movement (which was founded only a few miles away in the East End) and a few months after he led thousands through the streets of the East End (overwhelmingly Jewish area) dressed in black shirts and giving it the full Seig heil, resulting in the "Battle of Cable Street", so maybe a few of his supporters took the short journey to cosy up with their German mates???
But reading about this game and knowing that there was a huge movement against it taking place and many anti-protests at the time, resulting in the removal of the Nazi flag during the game, perhaps anti-movement mirrored that of the Cable Street march, where the reality was also the anti-fascist protestors out-numbered the fascists twenty to one. As the excellent Tifo video showed there was a lot of media air-brushing that day, now known as "fake news".
This is Mosley with his mate Mussolini in 1936.
Not a lot has changed really.
*I used to hate history at school, the dullest lesson by a mile. What's happening to me?
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Probably home fans in the away end...
Agree, the most likely scenario is that those not saluteing are English and non-fascist (I doubt they are Jewish as they might not be so restrained given the proximity but who knows).
Whilst 10k German fans had made it to the game to watch and support Germany, which means that almost certainly those seen saluting in the crowd are them, it wouldn't surprise me one bit however if many in the pic saluting were also English. It's at the height (or perhaps the beginning of the end) of Oswald Mosley's fascist movement (which was founded only a few miles away in the East End) and a few months after he led thousands through the streets of the East End (overwhelmingly Jewish area) dressed in black shirts and giving it the full Seig heil, resulting in the "Battle of Cable Street", so maybe a few of his supporters took the short journey to cosy up with their German mates???
But reading about this game and knowing that there was a huge movement against it taking place and many anti-protests at the time, resulting in the removal of the Nazi flag during the game, perhaps anti-movement mirrored that of the Cable Street march, where the reality was also the anti-fascist protestors out-numbered the fascists twenty to one. As the excellent Tifo video showed there was a lot of media air-brushing that day, now known as "fake news".
This is Mosley with his mate Mussolini in 1936.
Not a lot has changed really.
*I used to hate history at school, the dullest lesson by a mile. What's happening to me?
Incredible insight on that post! I will be reading up on that during the afternoon ( slow work day). Political history like this is fascinating, yet eye opening. Leftie papers such as the Guardian are very quick to point out when issues arise and they often point to who THEY think is behind it. The recent issue in Paris for example. The Guardian linked it to the far right (probably wasn't totally true).. but perhaps we are seeing history repeat itself. These images are powerful to show people how easily we are lead into a extremist values.
As for Mosley, I recall briefly reading up on this during school. It is remarkable how the East End is a one big pot of various religions and ethnics. I guess having an influx of "Johnny Foreigner" saw fascists on the rise. It is crazy to think how the left and the right grew in Britain between wars. Britain could have easily been far right or it could have seen a revolution ( workers strikers etc).
anyway, 2-0 the spurs tonight
Before my time but segregation did not start until seventies I think. Whilst most supporters wanted to be close to fans of their own team, the only segregation came when Police got between 2 groups of supporters.
It. was. a. joke.
"10,000 Nazis came to White Hart Lane"
or as we all know it as a home game against Chelsea
or as we all know it as a home game against Chelsea
Really interesting bit of history.
Problem with history is that it can be tainted with a modern eye. It was pointed out to me recently that each generation sees themselves as the principle of enlightened thinking, and looks back on history with a view that those in the past knew less than we do now. Partly explains the problems with virtue signalling, and judgement in modern media.
Therefore it’s always important to see stories like this where challenge of a flawed idea carries over the decades and we can all equally appreciate taking a righteous stand.
Looking at the pictures I am thinking that I recall that that it was illegal for Germans citizens to not salute in the heil Hitler manner, and I think I read once that they actually took citizens to court for failing to
Salute, so if that’s correct we must not judge those Germans in the crowd too harshly who were saluting they probably had to.
I noted the points above about the battle of Cable Street. That is something that the East End can rightly have pride in. However, the East End was not overwhelmingly Jewish in the 1930’s it never has been, back then it was likely to be majority English. Even today Jewish population in London is surprisingly small.
The group that fought The Union of Facists included the English& Irish commuinites and other organised groups such as the communist movement and Labour Party. Narurally, many Jewish were amongst those that took a stand.
Not that it especially matters the demographic of who was involved but I do think the story of humanity & kindness beating back wankers should be the most compelling.
Problem with history is that it can be tainted with a modern eye. It was pointed out to me recently that each generation sees themselves as the principle of enlightened thinking, and looks back on history with a view that those in the past knew less than we do now. Partly explains the problems with virtue signalling, and judgement in modern media.
Therefore it’s always important to see stories like this where challenge of a flawed idea carries over the decades and we can all equally appreciate taking a righteous stand.
Looking at the pictures I am thinking that I recall that that it was illegal for Germans citizens to not salute in the heil Hitler manner, and I think I read once that they actually took citizens to court for failing to
Salute, so if that’s correct we must not judge those Germans in the crowd too harshly who were saluting they probably had to.
I noted the points above about the battle of Cable Street. That is something that the East End can rightly have pride in. However, the East End was not overwhelmingly Jewish in the 1930’s it never has been, back then it was likely to be majority English. Even today Jewish population in London is surprisingly small.
The group that fought The Union of Facists included the English& Irish commuinites and other organised groups such as the communist movement and Labour Party. Narurally, many Jewish were amongst those that took a stand.
Not that it especially matters the demographic of who was involved but I do think the story of humanity & kindness beating back wankers should be the most compelling.
The East End has never been dominated by any one religion/race/whatever at a single point of time and I'd say that is still true to this day, it's a melting pot of many and an ever-changing population demographics over the generations too.
But the Jewish populations were significant and very concentrated at that time, with Stepney seen as the epicentre, it's though there were approx 200k living within a 1/4 radius of Stepney. Although perhaps the largest concentration was the generation before from the early 1900's. You are completely correct about other communities/nationalities joining the anti-fascist movement which included the Irish but it was highly politicly motivated too so communists (of which were a significant voice back then), liberal, socialists and trade unionists.
However, there was a growing anti-Semitic feeling around this time, most driven off the back of The Great Depression, when jobs are scarce someone is always to blame (usually an ethnic group and one that is easily identifiable).
Mosley was actually struggling to get any real traction and was seen as failing just before Cable Street. With him becoming more influenced by Mussolini and seeing the rise of the Nazi party in Germany he used the anti-semitic rhetoric as a focus for his party. Leading up to the march all the propaganda/publicity/leaflets etc was anti-semitic focused and with the march's route planned to go through the highest density districts, it was seen very much that the target was the Jews.
There's some really interesting stuff on it here: The Battle of Cable Street
Many thanks. Really grateful for the time taken to elaborate. I myself am East End born and bred, although moved slightly out to the Essex borders in 2001, so always of value to reflect on local history.