Could the fans buy ENIC out.

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I think the bolded bit is the biggest problem with your outlook - there doesn't exist a multi billionaire owner who's main focus is success on the pitch. Primarily because one doesn't become a multi-billionaire by inordinately focussing one's attention on something with such narrow, fluxuating, and largely uncontrollable profit margins as football.

You could argue that Citeh and PSG do, but then you're into discussing inheireted, entitled wealth and whether or not actually winning is the intention or the storefront to something more dubious. For everyone else, owning a football club is largely vanity entangled with property development and the potential to leverage ownership of a football club/stadium and membership in an exclusive club to the benefit of other business interests.

Even Abramovich was clearly in it for the benefits of redeveloping a massive chunk of London real estate, and after his plans for sites like Battersea went tits up and he's faced hus immigration struggles he's pretty much stopped putting money into the club.

There's certainly no one operating a club at the level you/we aspire to that is owned by an individual focused on on-pitch results. The days of top clubs being owned by local boys made good who attend every match and sign blank cheques for the manager in hopes of winning glory are gone.
To your point, but more bluntly:

City and PSG are propaganda machines for countries with horrible human rights abuses.
Chelsea was purchased as part of a money-laundering machine for Putin through Abramovich.

This is not a standard we should hope to emulate. I'd much prefer the Liverpool route of smart management and adequate resources. I think we are trying to tread a similar path.
 

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Mampi Mampi I think John Thomas John Thomas is spot on (I may need to lie down), having the best stadium, best run club, etc is all well and good however, one trophy in 20 years is NOT what top clubs should be achieving.
So had we won the champions league, suddenly the club has been run well for the past 20 years or so?

We aren't a top club. That's what I think Levy is changing.
 

JohnH

Supporter
So had we won the champions league, suddenly the club has been run well for the past 20 years or so?

We aren't a top club. That's what I think Levy is changing.
He's taking his time, don't you think?

Delivered a world class stadium, training facilities, etc. When will on field match off field?
 
To your point, but more bluntly:

City and PSG are propaganda machines for countries with horrible human rights abuses.
Chelsea was purchased as part of a money-laundering machine for Putin through Abramovich.

This is not a standard we should hope to emulate. I'd much prefer the Liverpool route of smart management and adequate resources. I think we are trying to tread a similar path.
Honestly, I feel like they're (Liverpool) emulating us rather than the other way around. They were a mess, albeit with a huge commercial head start, when their current ownership group arrived. Go back 18 months and their current ownership group had a net spend of basically fuck all at this level, and supporters were moaning about spending money to keep up. Sound familiar?

They had a couple good breaks in quick succession selling Sterling, Suarez, & Coutinho for the GDP of a small nation, coupled shrewd investment with fortuitous academy progression, and landed a cup (a trophy they beat us for). Outside of that, what have they accomplished that we haven't. They won a trophy (a fucking massive one I'm still bitter about, tbf) so 1 on pitch accomplishment vs. massive off pitch progress for us. Its debateable, but I'd say in the main we've been the more successful since FSG took them over. If we'd won the CL there wouldn't even be anything to discuss.
 
Honestly, I feel like they're (Liverpool) emulating us rather than the other way around. They were a mess, albeit with a huge commercial head start, when their current ownership group arrived. Go back 18 months and their current ownership group had a net spend of basically fuck all at this level, and supporters were moaning about spending money to keep up. Sound familiar?

They had a couple good breaks in quick succession selling Sterling, Suarez, & Coutinho for the GDP of a small nation, coupled shrewd investment with fortuitous academy progression, and landed a cup (a trophy they beat us for). Outside of that, what have they accomplished that we haven't. They won a trophy (a fucking massive one I'm still bitter about, tbf) so 1 on pitch accomplishment vs. massive off pitch progress for us. Its debateable, but I'd say in the main we've been the more successful since FSG took them over. If we'd won the CL there wouldn't even be anything to discuss.
I don't think its emulation as much as realization that this is how you compete in modern football if you don't have unlimited funds.

The Coutinho sale basically took Liverpool from competing for Top 4 to European Champions and two points from winning the league. They took that money, along with Sakho cash (lol), and bought VVD, Allison and Fabinho. They also hit the jackpot on Robertson and TTA. They've pretty much had flawless transfer business since the summer of 2016. Some of that is good scouting and a solid plan, and some of that is luck. They also have more revenue so that certainly helps (£455m in 17/18, Tottenham had 20% less at £381m).

I am hoping that selling Eriksen, Toby, Trippier, Rose for £160m and reinvesting that, plus some academy prospects and some good luck, and we can end up in a similar place.
 

John Thomas

Anchor Tenants
What speaks volumes - you described our lack of trophies as shameful. Suggesting you are ashamed of what we have or haven't won. You are ashamed of Tottenham, which to me speaks volumes. You clearly aren't happy with the way things are and have been going as the silverware returns don't meet your expectations. Not really necessary to explain this but expect you saw my response as 'shots fired'.

What makes me feel proud is the way we play football. The shirts we wear. Our history. The players that have come and gone. Not being a glory hunter. And when we next win a trophy, it will feel 100 times better for me than it seems to for say City or Madrid fans who are so used to winning - it's merely a minimum requirement.

Profits don't make me feel pride no. It confirms the club is being run well though.

Season ticket prices don't bring a tear to my eye no, though can safely gauge you are expecting some kind of reaction by the use of "tears". Well sorry, I'm not a petulant child.
The cost of season tickets don't bother me personally. It's very affordable really. If you want to talk about ticket pricing (which I don't think you do to be honest, you want a reaction) in my opinion we could further increase ticket prices with a clause. Lets say the average ticket is £70.. put that up to £80, but if we fail to win the game, £20 is refunded. I can't be bothered to do the proper sums looking at our home win %s, but we could probably guarantee more income over a season if we play well. Having a £90+ face value ticket to watch West Ham beat us, or Burnley hold us to a draw at home is really depressing. Paying £80-£90 to watch us beat Liverpool 4-1 or Madrid 3-1 is worth every penny - fuck if that was guaranteed I would pay an awful lot more.
I also think there should be schemes to enable low income families to take their kids to games, and also more availability for concessions. There's all sorts of ideas I would be keen to entertain.

We charge fans so much because we are a London club, play attractive football, have some of the best players in the world, and most importantly - it's the whole 'supply and demand' thing. We sold out a stadium to watch TV on the 1st June, and sold out for a friendly with Inter I understand.
If you don't feel like you get value for money - well you know what to do. I'm sure your shame of the club will be missed in the stands.

Lewis I couldn't tell you as he's quite private. Levy - I believe he loves our club entirely. He is proud of us, and is doing everything within his power to push us well beyond levels we ought to be fighting at, without being reckless ensuring proper longevity.

Okay, you make a pretty sweeping assumption about 'fans like me'. I could say similar things about yourself - but what's the point really? I'm here to talk Tottenham. It's another comment looking for some kind of reaction because I disagreed with you.
What's wrong with the modern game is a very broad subject which I can't be bothered to get into here - and that isn't the discussion you're looking for either.
It's a very long winded reply. But to answer your 2 main bullet points:

I never suggested I or any fan should be ashamed of what we haven't won. I said it's a shameful indictment of the owners. They should be ashamed.
I and every other fan should be proud the way we continue to support our club through our most barren period since the war.

You justify the club charging our fans more than any others in the world with the term supply and demand.
Well if thats not feeding off the gravy train of modern football I don't know what is.
Levy and Lewis have their snouts in the trough just as much as any other owners you care to mention.

I'll come back to my original point.
If you seriously think ENIC took control of Spurs for their love of the club and not their long term financial gain then you're extremely niave.

In my opinion.
 

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I don't think its emulation as much as realization that this is how you compete in modern football if you don't have unlimited funds.

The Coutinho sale basically took Liverpool from competing for Top 4 to European Champions and two points from winning the league. They took that money, along with Sakho cash (lol), and bought VVD, Allison and Fabinho. They also hit the jackpot on Robertson and TTA. They've pretty much had flawless transfer business since the summer of 2016. Some of that is good scouting and a solid plan, and some of that is luck. They also have more revenue so that certainly helps (£455m in 17/18, Tottenham had 20% less at £381m).

I am hoping that selling Eriksen, Toby, Trippier, Rose for £160m and reinvesting that, plus some academy prospects and some good luck, and we can end up in a similar place.
Agreed. I do believe its realization, though our success at it in the 15 years prior to FSG's arrival gave a pretty good example to follow.

I don't know about all the sales, all at once. But Ive gotten tired long ago of the transfer sagas...I'll just support the club that takes the field in a month. Just don't have the energy to care about transfers these days.
 
There are salient points in this debate but it is nowhere near as binary as it appears.

Levy/Joe Lewis are not Spurs fans like any contributor here, they are invested though. If you want to be clinical, they want the club to be successful so that when they sell it, it will have the highest return on investment. So while they may have selfish motivations, they're not evil and they compare very favourably to other investor's strategies and individual chairmen. Long and short of it, the club's value is defined by it's fans, it's ability to garner sponsorship and it's on the field performance.

I have written way too much about this and if anyone wants a bit more of an insight on that, there is the article 'Now is Not the Time', which is less of a car crash than the following thread debate on here!

ENIC have been here 20 years but the first time we saw the Champions League in the modern football era was 2010-11 season, so we only started looking like a major club within the last 8 years. I accept we could have and perhaps should have won a couple more trophies in that time. It's also kind of reductive to argue or rue the things you didn't get. You can only focus on what goes next.

The record profit comment is odd, the idea it should inspire either pride or shame is just irrelevant. The club needs to make money because of the debts it will have to service, also, some of that will be spent on player investment, we have just made our record signing you know? Again, there is no point getting angry over not signing players or, worst still attributing blame, I could make well rounded arguments that put the blame at ENIC's or Pochettino's door, given enough time, I'm sure I could make a case for 'Global Warming', 'Brexit' or the 'The delayed finale of Game of Thrones', the only truth I can tell you is that we're speculating because none of us know. Much like if we had of made signings that they would have tangibly changed the outcomes of our season.

I also think anyone saying that the only money a club should ever spend is on players, transfer fees and lucrative contracts, everything else must be considered secondary. As much as we want the best possible squad, how does that make sense if you're not doing other things, like the building projects and the building of the infrastructure to take the club up to the next level?

I take a pragmatic view, ENIC are not deity or something that requires blind worship but it is equally harsh to say they have not been a good custodian of the club. Could anyone argue that the club is in a worse state than they found it in?
 
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This is just a proposal and a kite in the sky to see what could be achieved but here is the scenario.

Man United fans are currently paying the loan off the glazers took out to buy Man U through general trading. What if you cut out the middle man. Tottenham fan base has a lot of financial expertise within its numbers. What if we could raise a vehicle that paid off ENIC then awarded 2 votes to season ticket holders 1 vote to members and the loan would be paid off through general trading. The terms of which would be fully explained. The club would then belong to it's fans. Stadium plans would be transparent i.e. admitting we can or cant afford it. We could vote the board in on 3 year cycle. With a yearly AGM. No dividend would ever be issued. All profits ploughed back into the club or into cheaper tickets.

I have no idea if this can work or if is even viable it's a discussion piece but it would at least warrant an examination. Could you imagine spurs owed by it's fans fighting for it's fans maybe even being honest with it's fans.

COYS
 
Speaks volumes of what?
If you don't gauge the success of your football club by what we achieve on the pitch, how do you guage it?

Is this what makes you feel proud?

Tottenham announce world-record profits of £112.9m driven by player trading and Wembley crowds

Stick your league titles and European trophies, we won the profit margin title


Does this bring a tear to your eye


Fuck your FA cups, we charge our fans more than any others to watch their football team play, despite winning the best part of fuck all for two decades!

Yeah, sure. Daniel and Joe are in it for the love of Spurs.

It's fans like you that epitomize everthing that's wrong with the modern game, and why an investment company riding the gravy train of the modern game continually get away seeing their asset multiply in value with the success of the actual football team very low on the list of priorities.
I've had the view that if you want to charge your fans the highest ticket prices in the world, then you better put out a team that is the best in the world which wins a lot of a things. Right now we are a team that has won 1 trophy in the last 20 years, ticket prices should reflect this.
 
Well that hasn't worked this century:(
Shame, and now we only have half of Chas and Dave left too.
I was gutted we didn't win something this season to keep the running stat that only Tottenham and Manchester United have won a trophy every decade since the 50s.
Yes Liverpool, that includes you.

2021, that EFL trophy is ours.
 
they want the club to be successful so that when they sell it, it will have the highest return on investment.
It's at the point now where I think Lewis will die before the club is sold.

I don't know what happens then.. maybe his kids take over, maybe Levy and his family buy a larger stake, maybe complete new ownership - but I see this happening within 10 years.
 

John Thomas

Anchor Tenants
So had we won the champions league, suddenly the club has been run well for the past 20 years or so?
But thats a nonsense statement because we didn't, did we.

You might just as well say had we not won the Double in 61 Bill Nicholson would have been an average manager.

Or if we hadn't won a Major European trophy and two FA cups in the 80s it would have been a shit decade.

It's not about what might have happened, it's about what did happen.

And we just went through a complete decade without a major trophy for the first time since WW2, while simultaneously recording the highest profit margin in the clubs history.
Surely you can understand the paradox there and why some fans are uncomfortable with it?
 

Darnswim

Supporter
The Spurs way? Making easy things harder...
But if you think ENIC are in the game for the love of Spurs rather than long term profit on their investment then your showing a huge amount of naivity.
I'd like to think that while Lewis simply sees us simply as a financial profit, Levy also sees Tottenham as a financial investement, but also wants to see us succeed. To be honest, there are few owners out there who I would trade for Levy. He's a complete moron and a pain in the arse for everyone that has to do business deals with him, but he's our moron. Now, some would argue that he is not a good owner, but he/we just hit the jackpot with Poch. While this is true, we still are a brand that is rising drastically and is doing it THE RIGHT WAY. There are only a few owners who are on par with ENIC for me (Agnelli family of Juve, De Laurentiis of Napoli and Perez of Real Madrid.) We should consider ourselves lucky that we don't have owners like that lot down the road do, or Newcastle, or Bolton, or Blackpool etc... And it's better that we don't have plastic owners like City and PSG too, because this has meant that we have risen while keeping our club soul alive...
 
But thats a nonsense statement because we didn't, did we.

You might just as well say had we not won the Double in 61 Bill Nicholson would have been an average manager.

Or if we hadn't won a Major European trophy and two FA cups in the 80s it would have been a shit decade.

It's not about what might have happened, it's about what did happen.

And we just went through a complete decade without a major trophy for the first time since WW2, while simultaneously recording the highest profit margin in the clubs history.
Surely you can understand the paradox there and why some fans are uncomfortable with it?
It's not a statement - just a hypothetical question. I don't think it makes a difference to 'how the club has been run', which is my point.

The lack of cups I would mostly put blame on the players and managers.
Everton, Portsmouth and Wigan have managed to lift the FA cup more recently than us (outside the big boys) but that's still only 3 teams in 28 years. Their 'below par' players and managers were capable of a magic cup run that we weren't. And for the majority of that time, we haven't been a 'big boy', so a plucky cup run was the best we could hope for like those clubs - going off the old reputation of Spurs being a 'cup team'.

More recently we have been in that higher category of clubs that you could expect to be one of the usual cup lifting suspects - yet have failed to do so. Poch has been pretty vocal on his lack of ambition to win a domestic cup, so he fields rotated teams with players lacking minutes until the later stages. So you can argue - its the poor squad depth that Levy is responsible for and to a certain extent I would agree. But lets look at the FA cup last season;

Dumped out 2-0 away to Palace. Rotated team with a Premier league fixture 3 days later. This was our staring 11.

Gazzaniga - 1 mil?
Foyth - 10 mil?
Sanchez - 40 mil?
Vertonghen - 12 mil?
Trippier - 4mil?
Skipp - Academy
Dier - 5 mil?
Walker-Peters - Academy
Moura - 25 mil?
N'Koudou - 10mil?
Llorente - 12mil?

That's over 100 million worth of players with 2 academy products, failing to win at Selhurst Park.
From my perspective that's not the fault of the owners. You could blame recruitment, scouting, manager, youth coaches, players themselves - but I simply do not blame Levy or Lewis. They had the tools at their disposal to get further than Palace away in the 4th round.
The season before, it was a very poor Utd in the semi. That might be the most deflated I have ever left a football stadium - I think because Dele gave us the lead, the place erupted like never before, and we fucked it up. The man that can't be criticised (Dembele) fucked up. We played Vorm, but that's no excuse for registering 2 shots on target in the entire game, with Eriksen, Dele, Son and Kane all starting.
How could you blame Levy for that? United had been fucking awful until that game, when their players rose to the occasion.

The inability to compete for the Premier league - blame is more easily attributed to the men upstairs as I feel that we would have had to have been spending at the rates of Chelsea, City, Utd to have a strong enough 25 man squad. Which brings me full circle really - what we have been building with this 'project' is allowing us to compete at their level, or at least a lot closer to it.

I'm not hating on Poch by the way. I think it's more to do with an ingrained sense of being at a failure club that rubs off on the players. We need to break that with 1 decent cup win - then I believe we will be flying.
 

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Am I remembering correctly?
Tottenham Hotspur played in a Champions League final last month?
Tottenham Hotspur played in consecutive FA Cup semifinals in 2018 and 2017?
Tottenham Hotspur played in a League Cup semifinal in 2019? A semifinal they would have won if the rules of the competition had not been changed for that year?
Tottenham Hotspur have finished 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in the last four years?
Manchester City and Chelsea are the only teams to finish ahead of Tottenham twice in those four years?
You morons are whining about mismanagement?
I am a newb American who watched his first Spurs game against Young Boys and fell in love at the San Siro. I remember reading how hopeless Tottenham was in Cl that year and how going to far in the competition could doom us. I remember the start of the Leicester season and hoping against hope for 4th place. This season just passed was great. A sugar daddy owner would be awesome but we don't have it and remember we could have Mike Ashley.
 
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