Match thread: Tottenham vs Swansea (Home)

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Tommy, I get the distinct impression that you have a long standing issue with modern football babble speak and simply leapt on something you saw in my post.

I dont think Ive invented anything new, and I dont even think what I am talking about is fanciful - considering it is purely observation of what our managers have done, not an invention of my imagination.

Honestly I really believe you have misunderstood what I was saying or why. Perhaps that is my fault, perhaps you should read the posts with more care.

Broadly I agree with much of what you are saying, though I do certainly believe tactics and playing systems hold more sway than you seem to. Its how teams like Bolton and Stoke become successful beyond their station and often what separates the very top teams in the biggest games.

The first game we beat Woolwich at home Redknapp most certainly outsmarted Wenger tactically, and that was by sitting deep and allowing them into certain areas, then breaking into the situation behind them that created.

That Woolwich team in particular didnt have anything like traditional wing play, all their attacking was virtually down the centre. Most often trying to play clever 1-2s and flicks to work their way through.

We set deep defensive lines, packing the centre. This forced Woolwich wide where they were basically ineffectual and as soon as we won the ball we had pace in Bale, Lennon and Defoe (as well as speed of thought in the ball being played to them) to really hurt them on the break.

As I said, they finished with something like 60% possession and were never even in the game, Harry snookered them completely.

Carlito was being hammered for his feelings on where we might press or defend, I raised this game as an example of what I believed his POV to be. Its a good example, IMO. Thats not to say I am promoting we do that every game, or even that it is my personal preference.

As to AVBs teasing the opposition, I provided the quote. His term was "provoke", so my memory betrayed me somehwat but the meaning is intact.

He has gone to length in the past to explain that essentially he likes players to invite pressure to create space that can be exploited.

As a team we are very good (and were so under Harry) at forcing teams to retreat and park the bus, dominate possession completely. We are (and were) very poor at converting that into meaningful chances. If AVBs tactics work in drawing opponents out of their two banks of four so that we can exploit the space that creates then fantastic. I think it is risky, as if they get the jump on us we are looking bare at the back, but if it works I think it will be a wonder to watch.

Again, I dont think this is something new, all I have done is simply express what AVB has said in interviews as it was (I felt) relevant to the discussion.

I do not believe I have reinvented the wheel, I dont think that by using terms like "pressing" I have invented a tactical master plan and I do not believe a tactical system is the be all and end all of winning a game.

I do believe all I have done is spoken about football as seemed relevant to the discussion.
I do believe tactics play a big part in a teams success, though of course not that that is anything new.
I do believe you have jumped in with both feet here on a misunderstanding of what I was saying/was trying to say.

And yes, my posts can get very lengthly, sometimes its necessary in order to make my point as well as I can.
 
First things first, I am not claiming to be some tactical genius, neither am I going to make any magical statements about how the team should set itself up, so for those of you sitting with knives out, looking for a quick execution – you will have to do what so many of you have done before, ignore everything I say, interpret everything in a manner that does me a total disservice, and then post infantile carping remarks.

That’s not aimed at you Lister – as I said, prior to your post that I posted my mickey taking remarks about, I had always enjoyed your input and thought your views to be sound.

I’ll skip the bit about insults, we’ve done that

I’ll also skip all the other points in the post that you subsequently mentioned, as I have absolutely no issues with them, and concentrate on the bit that I have a major problem with. I don’t have internet access at the moment, so I’m doing this from memory, so if I don’t quote verbatim don’t get the arseholes, I’m not really bothered with all of the details, it’s the general thrust of the argument that is risible.

In your post you commented on the principles of pressing and where about on the pitch to do it, and then came out with these fanciful notions of suckering teams in, and making them attack us, so we could utilise our speedy wingers to get round the back and score with speedy counter attacks. Yeah, like thats a tactic. This makes as much sense as a boxer saying, I let him punch me in the face for 5 rounds, so that he was so tired of punching me, that when I threw my right hook in desperation and knocked him out – it was all part of my plan. What else was it you were alluding to? Oh yeah, AVB claiming we teased them with the ball? WTF, did he really say that? Jesus, if Redknapp had ever come out with a dick like comment of that nature, there would have been rioting on the streets of Tottenham.

My piss taking is due to the ever increasing need for people to post their long winded and boring flights of fancy as a sort of audition for sky sports or MOTD, almost as if there was a hope that the incisive nature of the commentary would be recognised and that a celestial sleigh will collect the proponent and whisk them off to the studios.

Very little has been invented in football that is new – oh sure, people dick around with formations and dependant on their available talent, will play with various combinations, but the fact of the matter is simple. What wins games is having more talent on your side than theirs, fitness and discipline. Top that off with first class leadership on the field, and top notch management and motivational leadership off it, and tactics make up a tiny proportion of what happens on the pitch, and that centres around how you nullify their best players from causing you any damage. The whole stupid notion that you can allow a team to camp on the edge of your penalty box so that you can run around the back was ridiculed when Wimbledon did it in the 80s but now its tactical magic? Sure you can argue that Wimbledon didn’t play the ball up the pitch, but it was the same tactic, borne of desperation because they didn’t have the on field talent to work it up there, or keep it up there.

Which brings me to the pressing and playing a high line shit, that gets trotted out all the time. OK its just words, but some younger fans actually believe that this is some new kind of tactic, and that teams in the 60/70/80’s didn’t do it. Sorry guys but all of that stuff was being coached to me as a kid back in the 70’s – we just hadn’t gotten around to the need to call it pressing, because you used an iron for that, after you got your dry shirts off the high clothes line in the garden. The object of the game hasn’t changed one iota, get the ball up the pitch, into range of goal and take a shot at the bit of it that the goalkeeper isn’t standing in – without cheating, or getting caught offside.

The differences are manifest in the modern game, because players are more athletic, they train, eat and live like serious athletes and they run faster, longer and they put science into their diets and lifestyles now. The days of 2 hours training 3 days a week, 10 pints a night and a fag at half time are done and gone. Players now are better motivated, by teams of scientifically trained fitness coaches, backed up by medical staffs and drilled and coached to high standards of motor skills, muscle memory and core footballing skills. An average modern championship side would hammer the shit out of top sides from the 60’s, simply because they would run them into the deck and annihilate them with power and discipline. As long as the modern players could withstand the butchery and physical assaults that were commonplace in those days, they would crucify the old teams.

I make no bones about the fact that I like what Redknapp did for the club and the team that I have supported, watched hundreds of times up and down the country and across Europe and spent an obscene amount of money on, but the shit and ridicule poured on the man is just plain wrong, and its annoying to see the excuses, and lies that people promulgate about AVB, long before he has proved a fucking thing, often quoting where HR got it wrong, and how AVB is righting those wrongs.

Trust me, I hope AVB turns out to be our Fergie/Shankly/Busby mated with Nicholson to be the manager of the finest league winning British team of all time. I support Spurs – but I don’t do it blindly and I see a bad future if he is going to pin his hopes on cockeyed tactical fallacies that involve letting teams come on to us in the hope that we can get an occasional breakaway. I originally came on here asking for evidence of his tactical wizadry, because there has been little or no evidence of it, in any of the games I have witnessed. This is partly because we lost the VDV and the Rat, as well as injuries. Not getting Moutinho probably hasn’t helped him – but why does he persist with Dempsey and Codpiece (Sigurdsson) who are clearly hopeless? Why does he allow his sides to try to protect single goal leads (his substitutions give the game away) and why are we collapsing at the end of games? We didn’t against Swansea, because they played with a 9 man defence, and only started trying when they could see the panic in the teams eyes.

What I now see is that he is turning out to be a good man manager, motivator and trainer of footballers and teams, but he is too like Mourinho for his own good. Jose put out teams that played dull and effective football, and that is now what we are starting to see our team turn into. There is no swagger or risk taking on show, and hey its got us to 4th – but is it what we want to see? Not me, for sure.

So my comments that you got all pissy and precious about were to do with your earnest peddling of these babbletalk tactical analyses, that make little or no sense in a real world where 22 men battle it out with a ball, all independent thought, changes of mind, unkind bounces and mistimed tackles multiplied out by a thousand times a thousand times a thousand - as games move and emotions ebb and flow, blowing any kind of tactical preparation for gameplay into a zillion pieces. The fact is, life doesn’t play out to preconceived notions, even in controlled environments, let alone in the life under a microscope that professional football is, as played by footballers with the brains of rodents and the emotions of children.

But hey – if you want to believe in it all, knock yourself out. I prefer to believe in SAFs tactical acumen and approach, as well as Redknapps tactic of letting them express themselves, within the framework he set them out to play.

I don’t think for a minute that you will agree with much of this so you can comment or disagree with what you want, or take it as it stands.

I saw this and thought "fucking hell, no way I'm reading all that" glad I did.

Absolutely spot on. This place is clearly full of fantasy manager playing, sky sports watching, wannabe pundits who buy into this "I'm a better a fan because I'm willing to blindly accept (and justify) the performances of our ever so trendy manager".

Why is the atmosphere so bad??? Maybe because there is very little tangible evidence that this guy is all he cracked up to be
 
Tommy, I get the distinct impression that you have a long standing issue with modern football babble speak and simply leapt on something you saw in my post.

I dont think Ive invented anything new, and I dont even think what I am talking about is fanciful - considering it is purely observation of what our managers have done, not an invention of my imagination.

Honestly I really believe you have misunderstood what I was saying or why. Perhaps that is my fault, perhaps you should read the posts with more care.

Broadly I agree with much of what you are saying, though I do certainly believe tactics and playing systems hold more sway than you seem to. Its how teams like Bolton and Stoke become successful beyond their station and often what separates the very top teams in the biggest games.

The first game we beat Woolwich at home Redknapp most certainly outsmarted Wenger tactically, and that was by sitting deep and allowing them into certain areas, then breaking into the situation behind them that created.

That Woolwich team in particular didnt have anything like traditional wing play, all their attacking was virtually down the centre. Most often trying to play clever 1-2s and flicks to work their way through.

We set deep defensive lines, packing the centre. This forced Woolwich wide where they were basically ineffectual and as soon as we won the ball we had pace in Bale, Lennon and Defoe (as well as speed of thought in the ball being played to them) to really hurt them on the break.

As I said, they finished with something like 60% possession and were never even in the game, Harry snookered them completely.

Carlito was being hammered for his feelings on where we might press or defend, I raised this game as an example of what I believed his POV to be. Its a good example, IMO. Thats not to say I am promoting we do that every game, or even that it is my personal preference.

As to AVBs teasing the opposition, I provided the quote. His term was "provoke", so my memory betrayed me somehwat but the meaning is intact.

He has gone to length in the past to explain that essentially he likes players to invite pressure to create space that can be exploited.

As a team we are very good (and were so under Harry) at forcing teams to retreat and park the bus, dominate possession completely. We are (and were) very poor at converting that into meaningful chances. If AVBs tactics work in drawing opponents out of their two banks of four so that we can exploit the space that creates then fantastic. I think it is risky, as if they get the jump on us we are looking bare at the back, but if it works I think it will be a wonder to watch.

Again, I dont think this is something new, all I have done is simply express what AVB has said in interviews as it was (I felt) relevant to the discussion.

I do not believe I have reinvented the wheel, I dont think that by using terms like "pressing" I have invented a tactical master plan and I do not believe a tactical system is the be all and end all of winning a game.

I do believe all I have done is spoken about football as seemed relevant to the discussion.
I do believe tactics play a big part in a teams success, though of course not that that is anything new.
I do believe you have jumped in with both feet here on a misunderstanding of what I was saying/was trying to say.

And yes, my posts can get very lengthly, sometimes its necessary in order to make my point as well as I can.

A bit of editing will make that a decent article.
 
Why do you still post here even though you hate everyone?
not sure why you would say that - I was accused of trying to wind someone up by posting repetitively to cause aggravation, by someone who was clearly doing just that to me.
I have no issues with anyone who talks sense, nor do I with anyone who has an opinion, irrespective of whether I agree with it.
The guys a tit who is trying to be smart at my expense, I can't see why I should acept it.
 
First things first, I am not claiming to be some tactical genius, neither am I going to make any magical statements about how the team should set itself up, so for those of you sitting with knives out, looking for a quick execution – you will have to do what so many of you have done before, ignore everything I say, interpret everything in a manner that does me a total disservice, and then post infantile carping remarks.

That’s not aimed at you Lister – as I said, prior to your post that I posted my mickey taking remarks about, I had always enjoyed your input and thought your views to be sound.

I’ll skip the bit about insults, we’ve done that

I’ll also skip all the other points in the post that you subsequently mentioned, as I have absolutely no issues with them, and concentrate on the bit that I have a major problem with. I don’t have internet access at the moment, so I’m doing this from memory, so if I don’t quote verbatim don’t get the arseholes, I’m not really bothered with all of the details, it’s the general thrust of the argument that is risible.

In your post you commented on the principles of pressing and where about on the pitch to do it, and then came out with these fanciful notions of suckering teams in, and making them attack us, so we could utilise our speedy wingers to get round the back and score with speedy counter attacks. Yeah, like thats a tactic. This makes as much sense as a boxer saying, I let him punch me in the face for 5 rounds, so that he was so tired of punching me, that when I threw my right hook in desperation and knocked him out – it was all part of my plan. What else was it you were alluding to? Oh yeah, AVB claiming we teased them with the ball? WTF, did he really say that? Jesus, if Redknapp had ever come out with a dick like comment of that nature, there would have been rioting on the streets of Tottenham.

My piss taking is due to the ever increasing need for people to post their long winded and boring flights of fancy as a sort of audition for sky sports or MOTD, almost as if there was a hope that the incisive nature of the commentary would be recognised and that a celestial sleigh will collect the proponent and whisk them off to the studios.

Very little has been invented in football that is new – oh sure, people dick around with formations and dependant on their available talent, will play with various combinations, but the fact of the matter is simple. What wins games is having more talent on your side than theirs, fitness and discipline. Top that off with first class leadership on the field, and top notch management and motivational leadership off it, and tactics make up a tiny proportion of what happens on the pitch, and that centres around how you nullify their best players from causing you any damage. The whole stupid notion that you can allow a team to camp on the edge of your penalty box so that you can run around the back was ridiculed when Wimbledon did it in the 80s but now its tactical magic? Sure you can argue that Wimbledon didn’t play the ball up the pitch, but it was the same tactic, borne of desperation because they didn’t have the on field talent to work it up there, or keep it up there.

Which brings me to the pressing and playing a high line shit, that gets trotted out all the time. OK its just words, but some younger fans actually believe that this is some new kind of tactic, and that teams in the 60/70/80’s didn’t do it. Sorry guys but all of that stuff was being coached to me as a kid back in the 70’s – we just hadn’t gotten around to the need to call it pressing, because you used an iron for that, after you got your dry shirts off the high clothes line in the garden. The object of the game hasn’t changed one iota, get the ball up the pitch, into range of goal and take a shot at the bit of it that the goalkeeper isn’t standing in – without cheating, or getting caught offside.

The differences are manifest in the modern game, because players are more athletic, they train, eat and live like serious athletes and they run faster, longer and they put science into their diets and lifestyles now. The days of 2 hours training 3 days a week, 10 pints a night and a fag at half time are done and gone. Players now are better motivated, by teams of scientifically trained fitness coaches, backed up by medical staffs and drilled and coached to high standards of motor skills, muscle memory and core footballing skills. An average modern championship side would hammer the shit out of top sides from the 60’s, simply because they would run them into the deck and annihilate them with power and discipline. As long as the modern players could withstand the butchery and physical assaults that were commonplace in those days, they would crucify the old teams.

I make no bones about the fact that I like what Redknapp did for the club and the team that I have supported, watched hundreds of times up and down the country and across Europe and spent an obscene amount of money on, but the shit and ridicule poured on the man is just plain wrong, and its annoying to see the excuses, and lies that people promulgate about AVB, long before he has proved a fucking thing, often quoting where HR got it wrong, and how AVB is righting those wrongs.

Trust me, I hope AVB turns out to be our Fergie/Shankly/Busby mated with Nicholson to be the manager of the finest league winning British team of all time. I support Spurs – but I don’t do it blindly and I see a bad future if he is going to pin his hopes on cockeyed tactical fallacies that involve letting teams come on to us in the hope that we can get an occasional breakaway. I originally came on here asking for evidence of his tactical wizadry, because there has been little or no evidence of it, in any of the games I have witnessed. This is partly because we lost the VDV and the Rat, as well as injuries. Not getting Moutinho probably hasn’t helped him – but why does he persist with Dempsey and Codpiece (Sigurdsson) who are clearly hopeless? Why does he allow his sides to try to protect single goal leads (his substitutions give the game away) and why are we collapsing at the end of games? We didn’t against Swansea, because they played with a 9 man defence, and only started trying when they could see the panic in the teams eyes.

What I now see is that he is turning out to be a good man manager, motivator and trainer of footballers and teams, but he is too like Mourinho for his own good. Jose put out teams that played dull and effective football, and that is now what we are starting to see our team turn into. There is no swagger or risk taking on show, and hey its got us to 4th – but is it what we want to see? Not me, for sure.

So my comments that you got all pissy and precious about were to do with your earnest peddling of these babbletalk tactical analyses, that make little or no sense in a real world where 22 men battle it out with a ball, all independent thought, changes of mind, unkind bounces and mistimed tackles multiplied out by a thousand times a thousand times a thousand - as games move and emotions ebb and flow, blowing any kind of tactical preparation for gameplay into a zillion pieces. The fact is, life doesn’t play out to preconceived notions, even in controlled environments, let alone in the life under a microscope that professional football is, as played by footballers with the brains of rodents and the emotions of children.

But hey – if you want to believe in it all, knock yourself out. I prefer to believe in SAFs tactical acumen and approach, as well as Redknapps tactic of letting them express themselves, within the framework he set them out to play.

I don’t think for a minute that you will agree with much of this so you can comment or disagree with what you want, or take it as it stands.

A bit of editing will make that a decent sentence.
 
not sure why you would say that - I was accused of trying to wind someone up by posting repetitively to cause aggravation, by someone who was clearly doing just that to me.
I have no issues with anyone who talks sense, nor do I with anyone who has an opinion, irrespective of whether I agree with it.
The guys a tit who is trying to be smart at my expense, I can't see why I should acept it.
I tend to keep out of these things but I'm not sure I agree with the bolded, you've caned people who you perceive are "talking bollocks".
 
I tend to keep out of these things but I'm not sure I agree with the bolded, you've caned people who you perceive are "talking bollocks".
I'm a fairly pragmatic person, I spend a lot of my time reading professional documents to determine what they mean, so when I see something posted that reads false, surely I have the right to challenge it?
Maybe I should be less direct - perhaps if I also posted to praise posters for simply talking sense to balance things out, would that redress the balance?
 
I'm a fairly pragmatic person, I spend a lot of my time reading professional documents to determine what they mean, so when I see something posted that reads false, surely I have the right to challenge it?
Maybe I should be less direct - perhaps if I also posted to praise posters for simply talking sense to balance things out, would that redress the balance?
you do have the right to challenge it but to dismember everyone's posts that you don't agree with, thus derailing threads creates a bit of a vicious circle no?

There comes a point where we shake hands, agree to disgaree, and move on. The Swansea game was FOUR DAYS AGO! It's go to a point where we're no longer discussing the game and just having a clash of egos trying to determine who is right and wrong. Sometimes, you just have to walk away from the row (this goes for everyone, not just TH).

We've already said we don't want to be draconian by either banning people or making posts like this but decent threads are becoming derailed and a lot of people don't even want to post anymore.

Please, just pack it in chaps.
 
you do have the right to challenge it but to dismember everyone's posts that you don't agree with, thus derailing threads creates a bit of a vicious circle no?

There comes a point where we shake hands, agree to disgaree, and move on. The Swansea game was FOUR DAYS AGO! It's go to a point where we're no longer discussing the game and just having a clash of egos trying to determine who is right and wrong. Sometimes, you just have to walk away from the row (this goes for everyone, not just TH).

We've already said we don't want to be draconian by either banning people or making posts like this but decent threads are becoming derailed and a lot of people don't even want to post anymore.

Please, just pack it in chaps.
now its civilized, can it not continue elsewhere?
 
Tommy, I get the distinct impression that you have a long standing issue with modern football babble speak and simply leapt on something you saw in my post.

<snip>

And yes, my posts can get very lengthly, sometimes its necessary in order to make my point as well as I can.
I just typed a fairly lengthy reply to this and then deleted it accidentally, whilst pretending I was listening to the meeting I'm in. I'll try again later. Thanks for the considered reply
 
please keep it civilised, if you don't agree, please try not to belittle others. This goes for everyone, this forum needn't be happy clappy and people can have differences of opinions but 4 day derailed threads is just shit isn't it.
 
you do have the right to challenge it but to dismember everyone's posts that you don't agree with, thus derailing threads creates a bit of a vicious circle no?

There comes a point where we shake hands, agree to disgaree, and move on. The Swansea game was FOUR DAYS AGO! It's go to a point where we're no longer discussing the game and just having a clash of egos trying to determine who is right and wrong. Sometimes, you just have to walk away from the row (this goes for everyone, not just TH).

We've already said we don't want to be draconian by either banning people or making posts like this but decent threads are becoming derailed and a lot of people don't even want to post anymore.

Please, just pack it in chaps.
Apart from a bit of misunderstanding - I'd say we are now at civil discussion level, and I'd like to respond to Listers points (in the same manner) - do you want me to start a new thread? As long as Arty can lay off with the sniping then its an open debate, rather than doing it by PM

OK - got the response from your earlier reply
 
Given that its a thread that would have simply fallen away, as opposed to the Transfer rumour thread for example, Im not sure its such an issue is it?

Tommy and I have clearly butted heads here but it looks to me like sanity has prevailed and we are actually conversing now, so is there any need to try and moderate at this point?

Yesterday however :roflmao:
 
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