Wing play at Tottenham. Why do we persist?

[gibbs131]

But then all our "battlers" do is kick it out wide against a congested opposition, and as such they're predictably shut down. We've no one in the middle with the ability to drive through the middle, to cause oppositions to react and shift, to back-peddle. They can always face the ball because they know exactly how and when we're going to pass. So easy for a manager to watch a bit of tape and make things difficult for us with some very simple instructions for his players.

That is because our wingers and wingbacks cant read passes and make intelligent runs. You are right, it did always go to the wings and fizzle out. They were always in the equation. So lets get rid of the problem that stops the ball, dribbles, stops again, looks up and scores/creates the least and bring back solidity and power in the spine.

Bentaleb, Dembele, Paulinho are more well rounded, and lets face it...They can probably create and score more than Townsend and co if you take them out of the boiler room and give them AM roles. More importantly you can't lose with these lineups when it comes to injuries. Our players are way more adept at these roles if we have a massive injury crisis.

----------Ade-----------
--Eriks--Demb--Lam--
--Capoue----Sandro---

---------Soldado-------
--Paul--benta--Demb
---Vlad------Capoue---

---------Ade-----------
--Chad--benta---lam--
---Paul------Sandro---

------------Kane------------
--eriksen---Paul---Holtby--
------Vlad-------Sandro---

Dembele and Bentaleb were played mostly as a DMs when they have more in their locker. Chadli is now a fricken central midfielder apparently. Walker was given a roaming role. Eriksen is softening up the left. Rose and Naughton are Rose and Naughton, Soldado was being straight up starved by wingers and Ade has given us a target man the middle can link up with. It will also help solve the issue with scoring from corners having more well rounded players on the pitch. Lennon and Townsend have shocking heading stats, losing more that 8 out of 10. It is that softness that can tip the balance.

 

[cahspur]

That is because our wingers and wingbacks cant read passes and make intelligent runs. You are right, it did always go to the wings and fizzle out. They were always in the equation. So lets get rid of the problem that stops the ball, dribbles, stops again, looks up and scores/creates the least and bring back solidity and power in the spine.

Bentaleb, Dembele, Paulinho are more well rounded, and lets face it...They can probably create and score more than Townsend and co if you take them out of the boiler room and give them AM roles. More importantly you can't lose with these lineups when it comes to injuries. Our players are way more adept at these roles if we have a massive injury crisis.

----------Ade-----------
--Eriks--Demb--Lam--
--Capoue----Sandro---

---------Soldado-------
--Paul--benta--Demb
---Vlad------Capoue---

---------Ade-----------
--Chad--benta---lam--
---Paul------Sandro---

------------Kane------------
--eriksen---Paul---Holtby--
------Vlad-------Sandro---

Dembele and Bentaleb were played mostly as a DMs when they have more in their locker. Chadli is now a fricken central midfielder apparently. Walker was given a roaming role. Eriksen is softening up the left. Rose and Naughton are Rose and Naughton, Soldado was being straight up starved by wingers and Ade has given us a target man the middle can link up with. It will also help solve the issue with scoring from corners having more well rounded players on the pitch. Lennon and Townsend have shocking heading stats, losing more that 8 out of 10. It is that softness that can tip the balance.

No, not even remotely. They are all almost exactly the same kind of player. Dembele in particular has played in a more advanced role in a plethora of chances, and he continues to meet the invisible wall construct in his mind that is the attacking middle third, and he stalls only to push it out wide. It is not primarily the wingers' responsibility to feed the striker, it is the central midfield's. Speaking merely in terms of geometry, a central midfield has far more opportunities for lanes due to more open angles to find the striker or winger in attacking position. But our players in those supply positions simply are not quick enough or incisive enough to find those positions, and the problem is only compounded by the advanced back line inducing congestion.

Why must you assume our players fundamentally lack game intelligence upon the point of arriving at Prem status, before assessing the tactics that cause the problem? One is far more unlikely than the other, yet you continue to choose it as the most likely cause. You continue to discuss in terms of individuals, yet I can't recall you once discussing whole team tactics.

 

[gibbs131]

No, not even remotely. They are all almost exactly the same kind of player. Dembele in particular has played in a more advanced role in a plethora of chances

That is simply not true. He has been a DM in most games. I can only think of twice this season he has been an AM. Once on the right, and both under Sherwood. And that wasnt even for a whole game because a DM got injured and he had to slot back.

 

[cahspur]

That is simply not true. He has been a DM in most games. I can only think of twice this season he has been an AM. Once on the right, and both under Sherwood. And that wasnt even for a whole game because a DM got injured and he had to slot back.

He has played mostly CDM, but he has indeed played a more advanced role quite a few times this season, including improvisationally mid-match and especially last season. Nothing has changed since he's been here with our high back line. I cannot recall a single instance in which he played an incisive through-ball at any point in his time here. Paulinho has done slightly better in such a regard, but he too much prefers to just go wide and then run into the box.

 

[gibbs131]

Why must you assume our players fundamentally lack game intelligence upon the point of arriving at Prem status, before assessing the tactics that cause the problem? One is far more unlikely than the other, yet you continue to choose it as the most likely cause. You continue to discuss in terms of individuals, yet I can't recall you once discussing whole team tactics.

I just spewed paragraphs talking about team tactics. Complaining about Chadli as a midfielder, Walker given a free role, Soldado being isolated. You are zooming in on one aspect intelligence. I've mentioned Spine, dealing with injury crisis, wingbacks leaving holes, a more static back 4 being needed, dedicated DM's instead of AM's out of position and having players who have better finishing being in the final third etc.

I've done NOTHING but talk about tactics and formations.

 

[gibbs131]

He has played mostly CDM, but he has indeed played a more advanced role quite a few times this season, including improvisationally mid-match and especially last season. Nothing has changed since he's been here with our high back line. I cannot recall a single instance in which he played an incisive through-ball at any point in his time here. Paulinho has done slightly better in such a regard, but he too much prefers to just go wide and then run into the box.

That is because Paulinho has been a box to box midfielder. Dembele has been almost exclusively a DM. Esp under AVB. He should be beating people in the final third, and not in his own half.

 

[cahspur]

I just spewed paragraphs talking about team tactics. Chadli as a midfielder, Walker given a free role, Soldado being isolated. You are zooming in on one aspect intelligence. I've mentioned Spine, dealing with injury crisis, wingbacks leaving holes, a more static back 4 being needed, dedicated DM's instead of AM's out of position and having players who have better finishing being in the final third etc.

I've done NOTHING but talk about tactics and formations.

Such discussion of individuals and how they contribute to their specific roles is no different than what you're saying about the wingers. It is all about the individuals we have, what they're doing where, and who we need. That's all well and good, but you don't seem to understand team mechanics on the pitch and how those impact individual players. Cause and effect mate.

 

[CJJ]

Our defensive line has been so high, I'm surprised that anyone in the team would have no chance to dribble in the final third. It's not unusual to find half our defence further forwards than our forwards have the time. I don't even think 'DM' is even a position anymore for us

 

[gibbs131]

Such discussion of individuals and how they contribute to their specific roles is no different than what you're saying about the wingers.

The wingers/wingbacks were given wing roles and sucked balls all season. So as individuals they are failing in their plum (sic) roles. Dembele, Paulinho and Bentlaleb have all been shackled with defensive duties when they are on paper AM's. Paulinho may be an exception because he can do box to box, but not with the fairies we have next to him.

You have not seen Eriksen and Lamela or Holtby surrounded by muscle and bigger AM's, DM's and strikers. Ever. So you can't talk about cause and effect.

Whenever you have seen them, they have been on the pitch with puny wingers and wingbacks who further compound how lightweight Lamela, Eriksen and Holtby can be.

 

[gibbs131]

Our defensive line has been so high, I'm surprised that anyone in the team would have no chance to dribble in the final third. It's not unusual to find half our defence further forwards than our forwards have the time. I don't even think 'DM' is even a position anymore for us

I agree with that, and it drives me mad when we have potential world class DM's at our disposal this season. Capoue rotted until he got fat and broke, and Sandro has been run ragged because he's had wingers and AM's and a revolving door of CB's behind him. He ends up puking with effort. I also think Vlad should have been groomed as a DM and Wenger tried to sign Vert as a DM so he can also do a job if injuries permit.

 

[cahspur]

The wingers/wingbacks were given wing roles and sucked balls all season. So as individuals they are failing in their plum roles. Dembele, Paulinho and Bentlaleb have all been shackled with defensive duties when they are on paper AM's. Paulinho may be an exception because he can do box to box, but not with the fairies we have next to him.

You have not seen Eriksen and Lamela or Holtby surrounded by muscle and bigger AM's, DM's and strikers. Ever. So you can't talk about cause and effect.

Whenever you have seen them, they have been on the pitch with puny wingers and wingbacks who further compound how lightweight Lamela, Eriksen and Holtby can be.

Ha I'm done, I really should be studying. You're clueless as to football tactics and even debate nous. After all the patience and civility I've afforded you while others directly insulted you, you feed me this crock of shit. Good luck out there mate.

 

[gibbs131]

Ha I'm done, I really should be studying. You're clueless as to football tactics and even debate nous. After all the patience and civility I've afforded you while others directly insulted you, you feed me this crock of shit. Good luck out there mate.

He said days after our wingers/wingbacks help us concede 3 in 30 mins vs WBA flirting with relegation.

Cause and effect enough for you?

 

[CJJ]

I agree with that, and it drives me mad when we have potential world class DM's at our disposal this season. Capoue rotted until he got fat and broke, and Sandro has been run ragged because he's had wingers and AM's and a revolving door of CB's behind him. He ends up puking with effort. I also think Vlad should have been groomed as a DM and Wenger tried to sign Vert as a DM so he can also do a job if injuries permit.

I have to admit, Vertonghen and Chiriches as CBs is confusing, the 'youtube' reel for both, and often by their own admission, shows that they have their best moments either breaking out an attack from regaining possession (Vlad doing mazy midfield-esq runs, Vertonghen scoring goals from midfield positions).

I'm quite sure Sherwood played as a defensive midfielder, so I don't know why he seems to have no identity with defensive midfield play.

I could see sense with a back three supported by either one of those two, rather than a back four.
i.e.

- - - -DMC- - - -
DLC- DC -DRC


where DMC is either Vlad/Vertonghen, but keeping a mainly defensive role. DLC and DRC can spread the width if required and V/V can drop back and fill the gap to make a solid back four in any position when required.

It's not necessarily a terrible idea to have both in front of a back three when facing an attacking/wing based team

- - - DMC DMC - - -
-DLC - DC - DRC-
- - - - - - GK - - - - - -

I'd see it as two DM's sweeping the back line and allowing tracking of wing players without comprimising the defensive line. We've been pulled out of position all season.

 

[gibbs131]

I have to admit, Vertonghen and Chiriches as CBs is confusing, the 'youtube' reel for both, and often by their own admission, shows that they have their best moments either breaking out an attack from regaining possession (Vlad doing mazy midfield-esq runs, Vertonghen scoring goals from midfield positions).

I'm quite sure Sherwood played as a defensive midfielder, so I don't know why he seems to have no identity with defensive midfield play.

I could see sense with a back three supported by either one of those two, rather than a back four.
i.e.

- - - -DMC- - - -
DLC- DC -DRC


where DMC is either Vlad/Vertonghen, but keeping a mainly defensive role. DLC and DRC can spread the width if required and V/V can drop back and fill the gap to make a solid back four in any position when required.

It's not necessarily a terrible idea to have both in front of a back three when facing an attacking/wing based team

- - - DMC DMC - - -
-DLC - DC - DRC-
- - - - - - GK - - - - - -

I'd see it as two DM's sweeping the back line and allowing tracking of wing players without comprimising the defensive line. We've been pulled out of position all season.

Yep. IMO Wenger wanted him as a DM because he saw a potential Viera. IMO Vlad and Vert could be a Petit Viera (spits on floor) style blockade, but they can also link up with AM's. Capoue and Sandro would also be perfect for that role. Perhaps Sandro and Vlad will be a bit too mental though.

 

[CJJ]

Yep. IMO Wenger wanted him as a DM because he saw a potential Viera. IMO Vlad and Vert could be a Petit Viera (spits on floor) style blockade, but they can also link up with AM's. Capoue and Sandro would also be perfect for that role. Perhaps Sandro and Vlad will be a bit too mental though.

I'm confused by Sandro. He used to seem decent going forwards, but also a tough tackler. This season his shots and tackles have seemed like he's too busy with the 'beast' thing.
Ball falls out to him at 25 yards, "Beast kick ball!" - ends up in Row Z.
Opposition attacks, "Beast get ball!" - player ends up in hospital and Beast gets a yellow.

I'm hoping he's just suffering from the same season as everyone else, his attitude on the pitch and on Spurs TV is what saves him.

 

[gibbs131]

I'm confused by Sandro. He used to seem decent going forwards, but also a tough tackler. This season his shots and tackles have seemed like he's too busy with the 'beast' thing.
Ball falls out to him at 25 yards, "Beast kick ball!" - ends up in Row Z.
Opposition attacks, "Beast get ball!" - player ends up in hospital and Beast gets a yellow.

I'm hoping he's just suffering from the same season as everyone else, his attitude on the pitch and on Spurs TV is what saves him.

I think balance has a lot to do with it. I'm speculating, but Walker, Sandro, Bentaleb, Holtby, Kaboul and Vlad should perhaps be separated on the pitch. If you cluster them together it could be a recipe for disaster because of their willingness to go a bit stampy, kickouty, pushy, headbutty and studdsinny.

This has red card written all over it:

---Bentaleb-----Sandro------
LB ---Vlad--Kaboul--Walker

Then again perhaps the complete opposite could also happen due to the combined defensive strength of these players ends up making us less ragged/stretched off the ball? Either way, if we sprinkle in enough calming solid players like Dembele, Jan, Chadli, Paulinho, Ade (bar Woolwich), Eriksen and buy a leader at left back (easier said than done) we have so much depth.

I am really looking forward to who comes in next. It's Lev's last chance for me. The left back has to be a leader with pace. Any new signing...be it striker or leftback etc HAS to have strength, pace and intelligence. Because Eriksen, Dembele, Vlad, Jan, Paulinho etc have drawbacks when it comes to speed and we are a young squad that needs more leaders.

 

[gibbs131]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/tottenham-offer-danny-rose-new-3602946

Tottenham to offer Danny Rose a new contract to warn off prowling West Ham