Naughton - penalty/red card

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Was the penalty award correct? Was the red card award correct?

  • No to both

    Votes: 11 6.2%

  • Yes to both

    Votes: 31 17.4%

  • Penalty, but no red card

    Votes: 136 76.4%
  • Total voters
    178
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WindyCOYS

WindyCOYS

The Fighting Cock
Penalty - the 'deliberate' debate: BBC SPORT | Football | Laws & Equipment | What is 'deliberate' handball?

Former Premier League referee David Elleray said the referee's interpretation depends on whether the hand or arm is in an "unnatural" position at the point of contact.

"Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?" Elleray told BBC Sport.

"The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger.

"If the ball hits the arm then the referee must decide whether this action was to deliberately block the ball or whether the player has raised their arms to protect themselves - especially if the ball is hit at speed."​
Protecting himself is the only argument you could give in his defence, but he doesn't cover his face...

Sending off: The website for the English football association, The FA Cup and The England football team - Football Rules & Governance | The FA

Sending-off offences
A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the following seven offences:
serious foul play
violent conduct
spitting at an opponent or any other person
denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player's goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick
using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
receiving a second caution in the same match​


The officials have two decisions to make:

- is it deliberate handball (and that comes down to is his arm in an unnatural position and if so, is he making himself a bigger target or is he protecting himself - more info here)?

- once it has been deemed deliberate, is he "denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball"?

For me:

1. Naughton is clearly making himself a bigger target (yes, it's a split second decision but that's his reaction) - he doesn't protect his face, his hands are above his head.

2. The ball appears (certainly on first glance) to be flying into the roof of the net.


AngryWateryKakarikis.gif
 
WindyCOYS WindyCOYS

tbh at the time I thought it was harsh but looking at it subjectively probably the right decision..probably a 80/20 decision..
ether way Ive forgotten about it as we flogged those pikey cunts and that is all that matters..
 
I am trying to work out if he realised his hands were in front of him and tried to pull them up out the way of the ball. It looks almost like his arms go vertically upwards once the ball is kicked. Either way its definitely a penalty. I am not so sure on the red card, if the balls definitely going in it must be but seems a little harsh to give both.
 
Shot on target and hands in "unnatural" position in my view (the fuck was he flopping them straight up for?), so despite my disgust at the time, I have to admit I think Foy and his AR called this one correctly.
 
Pen yes. Red no.
The reality is only Naughton knows. For me there are too many things against it being a red than for:
a) He is not looking at the ball (his head is turned)
b) In order for him to commit to a block it is impossible to do that with hands by your side, so where should his hands be, what is a "natural" position?
c) It's point blank and therefore instinctive rather than pre-meditated therefore ball to hand rather the other way around. I'd say he it could be argued that he is protecting himself as his head turns away and his arms go up but as he is less than a yard away his arm movement to protect his face is incomplete. Just look at Hugo's reaction, who is 5 yards away, he is having to think about stopping the ball and therefore reacts much slower than Naughton even though he has more time to react.
d) Watching it in slow motion 1000 times can't prove ball is even on target.
e) Foy's a cunt. I mean where is he? Can you see him in that clip?
f) If the Lino was the cunt that said it was a goal scoring opportunity then he would have to be behind the ball which would mean he was out of position. He wasn't he was where he should be and therefore it is impossible for him to be 100% sure it was a goalscoring opportunity. Far to much guessing going on.
 
It seems like Naughton presumed the ball to go much lower and towards the low corner. Therefore he reaches forward with his leg in which situation it is natural to balance yourself with your arms. Would have given a yellow and a penalty. Giving a red is overestimating the cunningness of Naughton. He was careless but not purposefully cheating.
 
If Nolan wasn't so shit and could get his shot on target we wouldn't even be having this debate. Naughton actually read the play and covered the man well, but the terrible shot landed him in the shit.
 
zin said:
For me Lloris position meant it should have been yellow
Click to expand...
It's shifting, Lloris won't get there IMO. But it's almost irrelevant as Naughton doesn't know that.

shangweibaliu said:
It seems like Naughton presumed the ball to go much lower and towards the low corner. Therefore he reaches forward with his leg in which situation it is natural to balance yourself with your arms. Would have given a yellow and a penalty. Giving a red is overestimating the cunningness of Naughton. He was careless but not purposefully cheating.
Click to expand...

Why would he? He just tries to cover as much of the goal as possible.
BTW - reach forward with your leg and turn your head (as he does) and see where your arms go. Your shoulder twists, your arms don't go up!
 
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I've gone with pen but no red. You only really see straight red cards for handball in the area when a player acts as an impromptu goalkeeper and clearly tries to stop the ball on the line. Here the keeper is yet to attempt a save and his positioning shows that he has a reasonable chance of making it. Just because you handball a shot on target doesn't mean it should be straight red.

Spot on to say as well that his calculated attempted block is with the leg he has stuck out but that nob went for power and blasted it towards the roof of the net which ended up hitting nuaghton's arm.

Anyway.
Any news on whether we will appeal?
 
WindyCOYS said:
It's shifting, Lloris won't get there IMO. But it's almost irrelevant as Naughton doesn't know that.



Why would he? He just tries to cover as much of the goal as possible.
BTW - reach forward with your leg and turn your head (as he does) and see where your arms go. Your should twists, your arms don't go up!
Click to expand...
Yes they do actually.
 
Didn't seem intentional really, more of an instinctual thing; not deserving of a red. Perhaps not such a bad thing that he's out though. Dier looked pretty comfortable at right back. As long as Vertonghen is fit and can come in to centreback and not have to rely on Dawson, should be fine.
 
Looking back at the game and analyzing the tactics that followed the incident, I have come to the conclusion that this was part of Pochettino's plan.

He knew we were under pressure, so to alleviate the anxiety from the travelling fans, he ordered naughton to get sent off. Unfortunately the RB did it by giving away a pen, instead of poking Big Sam in the eye.

By switching to 10 men, we lessened the pressure to win and turned the game into a showcase of our team spirit and belief. Also Poch knew Dier at RB would be able to deal with the aerial pressure and break forward better.

It was Pochs masterplan. It was never a red, but it was the red Poch wanted. The genius of Poch will be shown when the red is rescinded.
 
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