Mousa Dembélé

[Nicholson 61]

Tbf though, he was never intended to be a DM. He sits in front of the back line, but he was brought in with the intent of being a player who could either pickup the ball from deep by his own tackle or the destroyer's (Sandro at the time), and move it forward. He was however, tasked with more defensive responsibility this season considering he only occasionally played next to a destroyer type. The season began with him alongside Paulinho, but you may remember Capoue impressed so much in that first game at Palace that he saw every minute in Prem play until his injury at the Emirates. AVB got his destroyer back, and so he sat him alongside Paulinho and then moved Dembele back to his better position sharing time with Paulinho. Of course, after Capoue as hurt and we tried to get Sandro back up to fitness, Dembele was back to operating as a pseudo-DM alongside Paulinho.

So it wasn't ever really intentional, simply a manifestation of us hoping our CDM (destroyer) situation would work out in terms of fitness, and not having a player altogether different from Dembele to provide another outlet option to make it work with balance of ball movement when he filled in, as both Paulinho and Bentaleb were simply too similar in their passing lanes and positioning. I.e. it just made everyone look worse, and especially against the better sides since that balance was so crucial.

Tbf though, he was never intended to be a DM. He sits in front of the back line, but he was brought in with the intent of being a player who could either pickup the ball from deep by his own tackle or the destroyer's (Sandro at the time), and move it forward. He was however, tasked with more defensive responsibility this season considering he only occasionally played next to a destroyer type. The season began with him alongside Paulinho, but you may remember Capoue impressed so much in that first game at Palace that he saw every minute in Prem play until his injury at the Emirates. AVB got his destroyer back, and so he sat him alongside Paulinho and then moved Dembele back to his better position sharing time with Paulinho. Of course, after Capoue as hurt and we tried to get Sandro back up to fitness, Dembele was back to operating as a pseudo-DM alongside Paulinho.

So it wasn't ever really intentional, simply a manifestation of us hoping our CDM (destroyer) situation would work out in terms of fitness, and not having a player altogether different from Dembele to provide another outlet option to make it work with balance of ball movement when he filled in, as both Paulinho and Bentaleb were simply too similar in their passing lanes and positioning. I.e. it just made everyone look worse, and especially against the better sides since that balance was so crucial.

Good points! For me if Mousa stays then to get the best out of him, I,d like to see him along side Eriksen in a 4-1-4-1. With the guidance and instruction, head up an motor forward. And have him share this role with Bentaleb. The destroyer you speak of (the 1 in front of the back 4) could be the position for an ageing Cambiasso? Again shared with Capoue!

Tbf though, he was never intended to be a DM. He sits in front of the back line, but he was brought in with the intent of being a player who could either pickup the ball from deep by his own tackle or the destroyer's (Sandro at the time), and move it forward. He was however, tasked with more defensive responsibility this season considering he only occasionally played next to a destroyer type. The season began with him alongside Paulinho, but you may remember Capoue impressed so much in that first game at Palace that he saw every minute in Prem play until his injury at the Emirates. AVB got his destroyer back, and so he sat him alongside Paulinho and then moved Dembele back to his better position sharing time with Paulinho. Of course, after Capoue as hurt and we tried to get Sandro back up to fitness, Dembele was back to operating as a pseudo-DM alongside Paulinho.

So it wasn't ever really intentional, simply a manifestation of us hoping our CDM (destroyer) situation would work out in terms of fitness, and not having a player altogether different from Dembele to provide another outlet option to make it work with balance of ball movement when he filled in, as both Paulinho and Bentaleb were simply too similar in their passing lanes and positioning. I.e. it just made everyone look worse, and especially against the better sides since that balance was so crucial.

 

[cahspur]

Who is our Destroyer? I can't see one. Sanro has been a liability since he came back from injury.

Yeah I see this as a problem. Unless Sandro sees significant improvement (which he very well may be doing over the summer, but only four games of 90 minutes last term is no good), that would leave us with Capoue, and then Bentaleb capable of providing holding mid play without being the typical "destroyer" type. As we saw from this last year, we can't do that again if Sandro's situation is still shaky. Even if he has healed, but doesn't manage to recover his pace, he may struggle in Poch's high press, high intensity system.

So while we have no idea what's going on there, there does seem to be significant interest from Italy. I know people won't like it, and I only ask folks discern what they read as my own wishes as entirely different from realistically thinking about this, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Poch move for Schneiderlin after a Sandro sale. Very athletic destroyer (Poch prefers very quick, mobile CDMs) with an excellent defensive track record, very accurate passer, works his bollocks clean off (runs over seven miles on average a game from a holding mid position), knows Poch and his tactics, and even registers as a homegrown.

Would love to see Sandro work out though ideally. He was incredible in 2012/13, and put up some absolutely absurd numbers both offensively and defensively for a defensive midfielder. I'm just not sure we'll ever see that Sandro again.

 

[Joe Clash]

We replaced Modric with Dembele and it didn't come off, nor was it likely to. He looks unhappy playing for us

Yeah I see this as a problem. Unless Sandro sees significant improvement (which he very well may be doing over the summer, but only four games of 90 minutes last term is no good), that would leave us with Capoue, and then Bentaleb capable of providing holding mid play without being the typical "destroyer" type. As we saw from this last year, we can't do that again if Sandro's situation is still shaky. Even if he has healed, but doesn't manage to recover his pace, he may struggle in Poch's high press, high intensity system.

So while we have no idea what's going on there, there does seem to be significant interest from Italy. I know people won't like it, and I only ask folks discern what they read as my own wishes as entirely different from realistically thinking about this, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Poch move for Schneiderlin after a Sandro sale. Very athletic destroyer (Poch prefers very quick, mobile CDMs) with an excellent defensive track record, very accurate passer, works his bollocks clean off (runs over seven miles on average a game from a holding mid position), knows Poch and his tactics, and even registers as a homegrown.

Would love to see Sandro work out though ideally. He was incredible in 2012/13, and put up some absolutely absurd numbers both offensively and defensively for a defensive midfielder. I'm just not sure we'll ever see that Sandro again.

You watch the game. Weren't you shocked at Sandro's attitude after his injury. Hurtling about doing nothing but kicking people, and getting carded after 8 minutes? It's a shame but that Sandro has gone IMO.

 

[cahspur]

We replaced Modric with Dembele and it didn't come off, nor was it likely to. He looks unhappy playing for us

You watch the game. Weren't you shocked at Sandro's attitude after his injury. Hurtling about doing nothing but kicking people, and getting carded after 8 minutes? It's a shame but that Sandro has gone IMO.

Haha I don't think I've ever been able to tell what Dembele's emotions are. I always get caught offguard when he smiles n shit during interviews. I just always think of:



I do think he'd be happier in Italy. He could crush it with his tough-tackling and his dribbling with the space and time they afford in Serie A. It would also allow him more time for his hip to heal, as it'd be less strain on those ligaments due to the less physical nature of that league.

Yeah... to be honest I don't really have high hopes for Sandro making a return. He hasn't looked half as mobile as he did that year in his performances this past season, even at the end, and he looks a bit out of shape. Unless he's putting in a rigid summer, I wouldn't be surprised if he's not at Spurs come August.

 

[gibbs131]

Therein lies the unfortunate problem, as he almost never takes players on just outside the box. So frustrating watching him glide through the middle third and leaving defenders helplessly behind him, only for him to come up against the back line and just pass it to one of the wingers.

It's because he's mostly used as a defensive player.

 

[gibbs131]

We replaced Modric with Dembele and it didn't come off, nor was it likely to. He looks unhappy playing for us

You watch the game. Weren't you shocked at Sandro's attitude after his injury. Hurtling about doing nothing but kicking people, and getting carded after 8 minutes? It's a shame but that Sandro has gone IMO.

We actually scored more prem points the season after modders left but results did not go our way.

Dembele was not happy playing in a defensive role.

I just think dembele will give us more possession and presence in the final third than the goto guys of last season (Lennon, Townsend, Defoe, soldado, siggy etc)

We were pushovers in the final third under avb this season. We got beasted until ade and Kane gave us a pair of balls.

Ade alone won't be able to give us this base. If you play ade with Lamela, eriksen and holtby (who I rate) we will be back to soft spurs.

 

[BUYLEDLEYNEWKNEES]

Though his hip is still obviously knackered he still makes me go 'Pwhoar' more than any other player in our squad. Incredibly talented with the ball at his feet, does need somebody next to him who is able to spread the play far quicker and pass the ball forward a tad quicker. Capoue though more defensive does seem to enjoy vertical passes more so than Sandro. I will give Dembele the same excuse I gave to Rose in that he had no consistency around him, the problem with our left side is that there as a whole is no consistency. Vertonghen, Rose, Dembele, Chadli, I'd say arguably our first choice left side all struggled with injury last year, they all managed about 50% of games each last year, consistency is one of the most important factors in football, Spurs on the bigger scale struggle from a lack of consistency across the board.

 

[cahspur]

It's because he's mostly used as a defensive player.

I'm curious here, not criticizing, do you understand the differences between central defensive mids, deep-lying playmakers, and box-to-box mids? Because I'm not sure if you've been discerning between those two roles of the two players sitting ahead of the back line, and those are some very important differences.

 

[gibbs131]

I'm curious here, not criticizing, do you understand the differences between central defensive mids, deep-lying playmakers, and box-to-box mids? Because I'm not sure if you've been discerning between those two roles of the two players sitting ahead of the back line, and those are some very important differences.

Do you ever step back and think you are obviously patronizing me? I've spent decades on message boards and you question if I understand player positions which are self explanatory? Obvious from descriptions?

My opinion on based on what we have. We don't have a deep lying playmaker. We don't need one either. The very last thing this team needs is yet another damn midfielder that never scores or assists and is limited in other areas.

 

[TDub]

We actually scored more prem points the season after modders left but results did not go our way.

Dembele was not happy playing in a defensive role.

I just think dembele will give us more possession and presence in the final third than the goto guys of last season (Lennon, Townsend, Defoe, soldado, siggy etc)

We were pushovers in the final third under avb this season. We got beasted until ade and Kane gave us a pair of balls.

Ade alone won't be able to give us this base. If you play ade with Lamela, eriksen and holtby (who I rate) we will be back to soft spurs.

To be honest, I hate playing Lennon, Defoe, Siggy on the wing, and Townsend, although I think he'll be good in the future. They're all not very good right now IMO. And I think that you believe that our problems in the final third were down to physicality while I believe that it was down to the rigidity of AVB's formation. You think that Ade and Kane solidified us while I think that Sherwood's open tactics made us more dangerous. I don't think Ade or Kane would have done anything under AVB, just like Soldado didn't do anything.

As for the Woolwich game you were talking about earlier, I think everybody is forgetting about how terrible we looked in attack. We can have all the possession in the world but Dembele mostly passes sideways so we had no penetration at all. Who gives a shit about possession and "presence" if there's no penetration. Even then, we had enough of presence last year, we don't need anymore physicality because we have a ton in Sandro, Capoue, Dembele, Paulinho, Ade, and Kane. Like I said, look at Liverpool, how do you explain that? You never answered that. We just had no movement and no togetherness and that's the underlying problem that is causing everything else. Hopefully Poch's system will solve that.

 

[gibbs131]

To be honest, I hate playing Lennon, Defoe, Siggy on the wing, and Townsend, although I think he'll be good in the future. They're all not very good right now IMO. And I think that you believe that our problems in the final third were down to physicality while I believe that it was down to the rigidity of AVB's formation. You think that Ade and Kane solidified us while I think that Sherwood's open tactics made us more dangerous. I don't think Ade or Kane would have done anything under AVB, just like Soldado didn't do anything.

As for the Woolwich game you were talking about earlier, I think everybody is forgetting about how terrible we looked in attack. We can have all the possession in the world but Dembele mostly passes sideways so we had no penetration at all. Who gives a shit about possession and "presence" if there's no penetration. Even then, we had enough of presence last year, we don't need anymore physicality because we have a ton in Sandro, Capoue, Dembele, Paulinho, Ade, and Kane. Like I said, look at Liverpool, how do you explain that? You never answered that. We just had no movement and no togetherness and that's the underlying problem that is causing everything else. Hopefully Poch's system will solve that.

I agree with you on most of that. But I don't think dembele has been given enough games in that role.

 

[cahspur]

Do you ever step back and think you are obviously patronizing me? I've spent decades on message boards and you question if I understand player positions which are self explanatory? Obvious from descriptions?

My opinion on based on what we have. We don't have a deep lying playmaker. We don't need one either. The very last thing this team needs is yet another damn midfielder that never scores or assists and is limited in other areas.

No that wasn't the intention in my question whatsoever. I'm just not sure from your posts that you've indicated knowledge of the differences between those positions, nor if you read my post above explaining how Dembele did come to be played defensively.

No ill will intended, just think that's important to note in the context of this discussion.

 

[cahspur]

To be honest, I hate playing Lennon, Defoe, Siggy on the wing, and Townsend, although I think he'll be good in the future. They're all not very good right now IMO. And I think that you believe that our problems in the final third were down to physicality while I believe that it was down to the rigidity of AVB's formation. You think that Ade and Kane solidified us while I think that Sherwood's open tactics made us more dangerous. I don't think Ade or Kane would have done anything under AVB, just like Soldado didn't do anything.

As for the Woolwich game you were talking about earlier, I think everybody is forgetting about how terrible we looked in attack. We can have all the possession in the world but Dembele mostly passes sideways so we had no penetration at all. Who gives a shit about possession and "presence" if there's no penetration. Even then, we had enough of presence last year, we don't need anymore physicality because we have a ton in Sandro, Capoue, Dembele, Paulinho, Ade, and Kane. Like I said, look at Liverpool, how do you explain that? You never answered that. We just had no movement and no togetherness and that's the underlying problem that is causing everything else. Hopefully Poch's system will solve that.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[TDub]

I agree with you on most of that. But I don't think dembele has been given enough games in that role.

Fair enough. If Dembele were to be more incisive with his passing and would take on more people around the box I think he'd be great. He has all of the skills, I just don't think he's comfortable trying them around the box. I'm sure Fulham thought he'd be great up top but he never panned out, that's why they moved him back. But oh well, I'm glad we at least found some understanding.

 

[truetomyself]

I've spent decades on message boards

 

[Anthony Beale]

No, but he could break into the box by dribbling one or two players. That is extremely valuable if it can be done somewhat consistently.

id say against most teams in the league, if you do that shit on the edge of the box, you're gonna be brought down 80% of the time or run into a wall of defence.

 

[HeroesAndVillains]

id say against most teams in the league, if you do that shit on the edge of the box, you're gonna be brought down 80% of the time or run into a wall of defence.

Yea, but Dembele is a one of a kind 1vs1 dribbler.

 

[Team Tanguy]

I'm curious here, not criticizing, do you understand the differences between central defensive mids, deep-lying playmakers, and box-to-box mids? Because I'm not sure if you've been discerning between those two roles of the two players sitting ahead of the back line, and those are some very important differences.

I know what you're trying to get at, but the fact is Dembele has been used very defensively, average position maps show that in many games he was our deepest midfielder despite playing alongside an out-and-out DM like Parker. Similarly in a midfield pairing of him with Paulinho/Sig/Bentaleb etc naturally he will be the DM of the team.

 

[cahspur]

I know what you're trying to get at, but the fact is Dembele has been used very defensively, average position maps show that in many games he was our deepest midfielder despite playing alongside an out-and-out DM like Parker. Similarly in a midfield pairing of him with Paulinho/Sig/Bentaleb etc naturally he will be the DM of the team.

Right, I agree with this as I explain in a prior post (when both CDM's were out), but the cause is not him being intentionally played as a DM nor has it been the majority of his time at Spurs. For his first season, he sat next to Sandro and then Parker. In his second, he had Sandro or Capoue whenever healthy, and Bentaleb for most of the winter. In fact, Sherwood only really played a designated holding mid when he played a three-man midfield, and that occurred less times last winter than you have fingers (and that's even if you got in a fight with a blender).

And again, just because he's been one of the two sat in front of the back line does not mean he is primarily a DM, despite being tasked with defensive responsibilities that arise as a result of field "geography" more than anything else, nor does him being positioned there prevent him from being more incisive in the final third upon his forward advances. There are players all over Europe who sit even deeper and do more defensively, yet score more, assist more, and make more "key passes."

The reason he has been deployed as a DM for solid chunks of time this year has been because he is indeed a very good ball-winner, and can be deployed there when Sandro and Capoue were out. But that was never his intended role assuming a fully fit squad, nor is it a valid excuse for throughout his career at Spurs as mostly a No 8 for being so averse against attacking a back line with his dribbling and passing. I've never seen anything so frustrating in my life of watching and playing this game.

 

[JDK]

Good article on Dembele. He remains such a beguiling player. He probably should be played mostly in tough games, he just is not the player you want when a team is trying to park the bus. Slows down play so much but capable of brilliant performances every so often. Frustrating. Can see him getting passed up by Stambouli eventually.

http://thepremierleagueowl.com/mousa-dembele-and-the-issue-in-tottenhams-midfield/