3-4-3

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TheJockmur said:
Walker and Rose have both scored screamers for us. They don't offer a goal threat in a back 4, with a back 3 they do though.
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Alderweireld is more of a goal threat than either, realistically. Just because you're a wing-back that scores one screamer per season doesn't mean you're a goal threat.

In a 5-2-3 they're playing the exact same role and position as they are in the 4-2-3-1. They're no more or less of a goal threat in either. Neither has ever been afraid to get forward just because we were playing with 2 center-backs before.
 
Don't see how someone can say Rose is more of a goal threat in a back three considering within the last 3 years he's scored against Liverpool, West Ham, Chelsea, Swansea etc. whilst playing in a back four..
 
VirginiaSpur said:
Alderweireld is more of a goal threat than either, realistically. Just because you're a wing-back that scores one screamer per season doesn't mean you're a goal threat.

In a 5-2-3 they're playing the exact same role and position as they are in the 4-2-3-1. They're no more or less of a goal threat in either. Neither has ever been afraid to get forward just because we were playing with 2 center-backs before.
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They both have much more attacking freedom in this sort of formation and will be expected to play even more as wingers. Alderweireld is literally only a threat when we have a set piece. That really isn't the same thing. This political race in America really is skewing your view on football!
 
Totti said:
Don't see how someone can say Rose is more of a goal threat in a back three considering within the last 3 years he's scored against Liverpool, West Ham, Chelsea, Swansea etc. whilst playing in a back four..
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Why would Rose be playing in the back 3, yesterday he was playing pretty much as a winger.
 
TheJockmur said:
They both have much more attacking freedom in this sort of formation and will be expected to play even more as wingers. Alderweireld is literally only a threat when we have a set piece. That really isn't the same thing. This political race in America really is skewing your view on football!
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In order:
- Fundamentally false.
- Yes, that's precisely my point. And it illustrates why Rose and Walker can't be considered real goal threats.
- Fuck off with that ad hominem bullshit.
 
Tomo said:
Why would Rose be playing in the back 3, yesterday he was playing pretty much as a winger.
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Nobody is saying that he's in the back three.

On the other hand, just because we were playing 3 at the back yesterday doesn't mean that Walker and Rose's role in the team has changed. It hasn't. They were wing-backs bombing down the flanks and giving the team its width when we were playing 2 at the back, and they're wing-backs bombing down the flanks and giving the team its width when we're playing 3 at the back.

The only reason why people think their role has changed is because Wenger didn't see the formation change coming and he got his tactics wrong, and as a result we had more control over the game than would be expected.
 
Tomo said:
Why would Rose be playing in the back 3, yesterday he was playing pretty much as a winger.
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I meant when we play a back three. He'll get into positions to score regardless because that's the type of player he is. He likes to be high up whether we play 4 at he back or 3 at the back. I didn't see Danny Rose play ANY differently yesterday to how I've seen him play when when we play 4 at the back. His name on the teamsheet was slightly higher, that's about it.
 
Gascoigne8 said:
I'm curious as to why you think that? Surely with the extra CB in defence Walker and Rose have less defensive responsibilities and are thus avle to focus more on the offensive side of the game?
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We've always played a high-line.
Rose and Walker have always played very far forward as wing-backs.
They've always provided the width.

Almost nothing has changed about their role, except how they're drawn on the formation map. They've never played as flat back-four fullbacks.
 
Totti said:
I meant when we play a back three. He'll get into positions to score regardless because that's the type of player he is. He likes to be high up whether we play 4 at he back or 3 at the back. I didn't see Danny Rose play ANY differently yesterday to how I've seen him play when when we play 4 at the back. His name on the teamsheet was slightly higher, that's about it.
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His average position was also a fair bit higher and he was able to make interceptions much higher up the pitch than usual.

Case in point, where he made the interception and went past 2 before Harry tried to take over and fucked up the attacking move.
 
TheJockmur said:
His average position was also a fair bit higher and he was able to make interceptions much higher up the pitch than usual.

Case in point, where he made the interception and went past 2 before Harry tried to take over and fucked up the attacking move.
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To be fair, I didn't really see anything different from him or Walker that suggested they'd be more of a goal threat in that position though. Rose is more instinctive and tends to go forward and at times find himself AT the back post regardless (Liverpool at home an example) - whereas Walker is rarely in those positions.

Yesterday could have been a flat back 5 and Rose and Walker would still have provided the width and wing play.
 
VirginiaSpur said:
We've always played a high-line.
Rose and Walker have always played very far forward as wing-backs.
They've always provided the width.

Almost nothing has changed about their role, except how they're drawn on the formation map. They've never played as flat back-four fullbacks.
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I agree that they were always playing far forward, but in the 352 it's even more extreme. On MOTD they showed a couple of situations were they were very high up and the CBs were left to deal with certain situations where you normally expect our full-backs to be in our usual formation.
 
Gascoigne8 said:
I agree that they were always playing far forward, but in the 352 it's even more extreme. On MOTD they showed a couple of situations were they were very high up and the CBs were left to deal with certain situations where you normally expect our full-backs to be in our usual formation.
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They were maybe a bit farther forward than usual, but I still maintain that it's more down to Wenger getting the tactics and shape wrong. They just didn't see us coming at them like that.

Rose and Walker have always had a long ways to track back, and our center-backs have always been ready to take on attackers on the flanks, etc.
 
tbonepremier said:
Fundamentally false? Your grasp on football tactics/strategy is rather shit.
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They've always played like this.

Slotting a third center-back into defense doesn't change them into midfielders. They've always been attacking wing-backs, and what's more is that fundamental to our shape last season was Dier dropping deep and deputizing as a center-back to allow Vertonghen or Alderweireld to get forward. Forget the team-sheet formation, in attack and defense formations take on different shapes, and in attacking play last season with Dier in the squad playing the anchor we arguably played with three center-backs for a large part of the season.

As far as Rose and Walker are concerned there's been no change to their role in the squad. Absolutely none. They weren't playing any differently against Woolwich. If anything they were being truer to how they actually played last season, when Dier was fluidly anchoring the midfield and allowing Vertonghen and Alderweireld to split, forming a back three.
 
VirginiaSpur said:
They've always played like this.

Slotting a third center-back into defense doesn't change them into midfielders. They've always been attacking wing-backs, and what's more is that fundamental to our shape last season was Dier dropping deep and deputizing as a center-back to allow Vertonghen or Alderweireld to get forward. Forget the team-sheet formation, in attack and defense formations take on different shapes, and in attacking play last season with Dier in the squad playing the anchor we arguably played with three center-backs for a large part of the season.

As far as Rose and Walker are concerned there's been no change to their role in the squad. Absolutely none. They weren't playing any differently against Woolwich. If anything they were being truer to how they actually played last season, when Dier was fluidly anchoring the midfield and allowing Vertonghen and Alderweireld to split, forming a back three.
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They were far more offensive than they would be in the same match up in a 4-2-3-1, and a hell of a lot more offensive than they would be and have been when we've played 4-1-4-1. The numbers does not tell the full story, but they set the scene.
 
tbonepremier said:
They were far more offensive than they would be in the same match up in a 4-2-3-1, and a hell of a lot more offensive than they would be and have been when we've played 4-1-4-1. The numbers does not tell the full story, but they set the scene.
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Kyle Walker spends as much time in the opponents corner of the field as he does his own. We've got the two most attacking backs in the league, and it's been that way for several seasons.

People acting all of a sudden like they're wingers just because they're drawn on the formation map half a step forward. It's nonsense.
 
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