Tottenham Hotspur v Chelsea

[Lister]

Has he actually named names and singled out individuals? All I have seen is a slating for a team performance, and I think there is a difference between the two. To address a team performance in the manner of the quotes I saw, I think is acceptable, a public rifting of an individual is entirely wrong under any circumstances - given the ego's involved, then its a hapless and cretinous move.

He didnt, which is a fair point. Problem is, IMO, there is a precedent for this sort of thing being a bad idea - even if it is justified.

While not naming names he has drawn a line through the squad, condemned their collective mentality and had a pop at those upstairs. While the comments may be bang on the money they are a the sort of thing that betray a struggling manager is at a weak point - not something that ends well...

 

[Smoked Salmon]

People get pissed off when we compare Tim with AVB, or AVB with Harry, let alone comparing Tim to a manager that has never managed Spurs, or managed in England for that matter. To make statements such as "LvG wouldn't have lost that game" is utter bollocks (not quoting you there). Completely irrelevant comparison, with no factual basis whatsoever. I'm up for discussing LvG's potential position within the club (in the relevant thread), but to compare our reaction to what Tim said with how we might react had LvG said it, IF he were our manager and IF we got spanked (which hasn't and might not happen) is quite frankly pointless. You could say that about any manager, after any game. What's the relevance in this situation?

I would normally agree with keeping such comments behind closed doors, but I am actually pleased on this occasion as the players have let us down too many times this season, and you could see he was hurt from that performance, whether for the team or his own sake. But it was nice to see some human emotion in front of the camera. I was fuckin livid, and embarrassed after that result, and he was too. And he said it. The players need to stand up and be counted. Tim is the manager, but he's not their boss. The club, the fans, are paying their wages, and they need to go out there and earn them. I feel we've been on the end of enough hammerings this season to be able to call out some players and ask what the fuck is going on. The sheer amount of individual errors is sickening, against a team that should have required no motivational speeches from the manager to get the players up for it.

I'm not sure LvG would have the "gravitas" to make it up. The bloke can be a complete nutjob, and it has cost him jobs in the past, and probably preventing some clubs from hiring him since. I think Tim will be fine. The players owe him a performance to be honest, that last half hour was dreadful. No amount of coaching or tactics can prevent that.

Anyway, as I say, the whole "LvG wouldn't have done that", "LvG would sort that out" isn't relevant nor possible to discuss, as we have no idea what he'll do (IF he becomes our manager). But I can bet that many would accept these comments from him, but have not accepted the same from Tim.

If he had made those comments I probably wouldn't much like it, but I can put the trust in him because he's got history to show for it.

It's really rather simple - if a manager who has won the league at every club he's managed comes out and says something like that you have a reasonable amount of faith that he knows what he's doing.

If a manager who has just a few months under his belt, no trophies and no coaching badges, comes out and says it you wonder whether or not he knows what he's doing - and whether the players will have respect for him after those comments.

Your post is contradictory in the sense that you are basically saying people shouldn't speculate about LvG, but then come out and directly compare Sherwood's treatment with what you speculate is the treatment he would get. But you are essentially comparing a university student with a 30 year senior and qualified professional. If you go into a hospital, whose opinion are you more likely to rely on, the student Doctor or the eminent surgeon who has conducted 20,000 operations?

 

[Smoked Salmon]

He didnt, which is a fair point. Problem is, IMO, there is a precedent for this sort of thing being a bad idea - even if it is justified.

While not naming names he has drawn a line through the squad, condemned their collective mentality and had a pop at those upstairs. While the comments may be bang on the money they are a the sort of thing that betray a struggling manager is at a weak point - not something that ends well...

Agreed. What concerns me as well is that, save for Ade, the players clearly don't want to play for Sherwood. This could be for a variety of reasons. They may think he's leaving soon. They may think he's not not up to the job. They may simply think that he's a shitty little upstart who has done fuck all in the game in terms of management so why should they listen to him? Any of these could be the case, and if it's the third of these possibilities then there is a distinct chance that he has inflicted a great deal more damage. If I were the players and I heard that I'd probably think to myself "fuck you, I'm not playing for you and I can't want to see the back of you when you're inevitably sacked in a few months".

It reminds me of when Jonathan Woodgate publicly came out after a match and slated Ramos. It was clear that the players were tired of him and were not performing to a reasonable standard deliberately so they could see the back of him. I think Tim should underestimate the power the players can wield over him.

 

[OffTheBench]

Anyone know what our highest ever points total is after 29 games and how this season compares? Is there a website that has that kind of stats?

 

[Mick Cooper]

He didnt, which is a fair point. Problem is, IMO, there is a precedent for this sort of thing being a bad idea - even if it is justified.

While not naming names he has drawn a line through the squad, condemned their collective mentality and had a pop at those upstairs. While the comments may be bang on the money they are a the sort of thing that betray a struggling manager is at a weak point - not something that ends well...

hmmm, maybe
This reminds me of the end of redknapps tenure, when the pitchfork and torch brigade would seize on any of their fevered imaginings and cite them as absolute proof that he was dragging the club slowly to sodom and gomorrah. Now the anti tim brigade are starting to stoke themselves up with feverish glee stating all kinds of "clear to see" events in the teams performance and demeanour. The ball is rolling, so the cognoscenti will be dusting off their pitchforks and filling the lighter fuel pots, prior to gathering the townsfolk with impassioned speeches on heresy and the devil.
The blood is starting to boil.

However, I don't believe that you will be one of them, you have stated your objections clearly from the start in a sane and rational manner, which is admirable. I see you as the town doctor, worried by events and telling people to remain calm, whilst packing your wife and kids off to somewhere safe, on the back of an ox cart............

 

[Sunglasses Ron]

I would normally agree with keeping such comments behind closed doors, but I am actually pleased on this occasion as the players have let us down too many times this season, and you could see he was hurt from that performance, whether for the team or his own sake. But it was nice to see some human emotion in front of the camera. I was fuckin livid, and embarrassed after that result, and he was too. And he said it. The players need to stand up and be counted. Tim is the manager, but he's not their boss. The club, the fans, are paying their wages, and they need to go out there and earn them. I feel we've been on the end of enough hammerings this season to be able to call out some players and ask what the fuck is going on. The sheer amount of individual errors is sickening, against a team that should have required no motivational speeches from the manager to get the players up for it.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[Millbanks]

If he had made those comments I probably wouldn't much like it, but I can put the trust in him because he's got history to show for it.

It's really rather simple - if a manager who has won the league at every club he's managed comes out and says something like that you have a reasonable amount of faith that he knows what he's doing.

If a manager who has just a few months under his belt, no trophies and no coaching badges, comes out and says it you wonder whether or not he knows what he's doing - and whether the players will have respect for him after those comments.

Your post is contradictory in the sense that you are basically saying people shouldn't speculate about LvG, but then come out and directly compare Sherwood's treatment with what you speculate is the treatment he would get. But you are essentially comparing a university student with a 30 year senior and qualified professional. If you go into a hospital, whose opinion are you more likely to rely on, the student Doctor or the eminent surgeon who has conducted 20,000 operations?

Tim has nothing to show in managerial terms, but he has won the Premier League, something our squad are far from capable of. For what he lacks in tactical nous, he makes up for in on-the-pitch experience and know-how. The players should respect him in such that he has done something none of them have but they should be striving to do. In my opinion, if any of our players are not giving their all due to Tim's CV, they can be released on a free as far as I'm concerned, from a fans' point of view.

To suggest Van Gaal knows what he's doing when he criticises players would be naive - he has cost himself several jobs doing so.

You mention LvG's history, but I notice everyone is cherry-picking his achievements and paying particular attention to his win ratio (something we know is not enough as AVB's was more than acceptable).
He managed Ajax for several years, taking over in a league heavily dominated by 2 teams until very recently (similar to the SPL until the Rangers fiasco). I would not attribute championships in the Eredivisie to being a top manager (after all Steve McLaren won it!), but a good start none-the-less.
Barcelona, again a league heavily dominated by 2 teams, but he broke a 3-year absence from league titles with them. Lost the title in his 3rd season to Deportivo La Coruna following a few high profile fall-outs with star players, in particular Rivaldo.
Took over as Netherlands manager - failed to qualify for the 2002 World Cup, finishing behind Portugal and Republic of Ireland.
Back to Barcelona in summer '02, but gone by January '03 with Barcelona sat 3 points off relegation.
Takes role of Technical Director at Ajax in '04 but resigns same year due to internal conflict.
Manager of AZ Alkmaar. Finishes 2nd, 3rd, 11th, 1st. Again, Eredivisie not comparable to the Premier League.
Bayern Munich, won the league title first season, something they had done 8 of the 12 previous seasons. Also won DFB Pokal.
Sacked in April the following season having dropped below 3rd place in the Bundesliga.
Back at Netherlands - remains to be seen how they will fair in Brazil.

He didn't win the Champions League with either Barcelona or Bayern Munich, could that be seen as an under-achievement by their standards? It certainly is these days, and they were equally as dominant back then.

Admittedly a brief breakdown, but it's hardly all unicorns and fairy tales. If he did come to manage us, it'd be the first 'project' of the sort. AZ are the only time he hasn't managed a club expected to win the league, and that league is not comparable to ours.

I don't deny LvG has far more on his CV to shout about, but does that automatically make him more suitable for us? I don't think so. In fact, you could argue he is as much of a risk as Tim is, given his inexperience managing teams at our level, and no experience of the Premier League whatsoever.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Tim has nothing to show in managerial terms, but he has won the Premier League

Sorry mate, but that's bollocks, and I'm afraid I as very tempted to stop reading there. What you're basically saying is that if a bricklayer has experience laying bricks then he's learned enough to be an architect.

Poppycock.

As for Van Gaal, the argument you are making is ludicrous. You're basically trying to suggest that because he's had a few blips along the way we should completely dismiss the huge hall of trophies he's won. He's won trophies at every single top club he's managed. Is your argument that we should dismiss that because Super Timmy won a single PL as a player? That's crazy stuff. In case you haven't noticed we've hardly been raking in the trophies. If Van Gaal can get us even one or two and keep us in the top four then as far as I am concerned Timmy can fuck off because it's more than we've had in a long time. Sure, Sherwood may go on to gain experience and be a half decent manager. If he does, then I may think he's a good option for us. But not now.

 

[Lister]

To be fair to Millbanks, its not unreasonable to caution re LVG. Im a fan, and Im all up for him coming in - but he is a very abbrasive character, and he has had a few blips along the way - so there are no certainties of success with him.

Though, for me, a much much higher probability of success than under most managers - as his CV suggests.

And IMO there really is no comparison to Sherwood. Which isnt to slate Sherwood, its simply true at this point in time.

 

[Suzyfree]

In my humble opinion, even if THFC managed to get Mourinho, Guardiola, Fergie or some other multiple-trophy winning manager to White Hart Lane, there's nothing much any one of them can do.

The current squad is terribly imbalanced. It was made worse with Defoe and Holtby leaving in the January transfer window. Bale and Modric left in consecutive seasons, 100mil spent on players that do not address more pertinent needs.

Some sensible business must be done this summer. Also, youngsters such as Zeki Fryers should be loaned out to gain experience. There's no point leaving him on the bench. And you can't rely on him to take on the big boys in the league.

 

[Millbanks]

Sorry mate, but that's bollocks, and I'm afraid I as very tempted to stop reading there. What you're basically saying is that if a bricklayer has experience laying bricks then he's learned enough to be an architect.

Poppycock.

As for Van Gaal, the argument you are making is ludicrous. You're basically trying to suggest that because he's had a few blips along the way we should completely dismiss the huge hall of trophies he's won. He's won trophies at every single top club he's managed. Is your argument that we should dismiss that because Super Timmy won a single PL as a player? That's crazy stuff. In case you haven't noticed we've hardly been raking in the trophies. If Van Gaal can get us even one or two and keep us in the top four then as far as I am concerned Timmy can fuck off because it's more than we've had in a long time. Sure, Sherwood may go on to gain experience and be a half decent manager. If he does, then I may think he's a good option for us. But not now.

Actually I would say your analogies are bollocks. University student/surgeon, brick layer/architect - not comparable to a player becoming a manager, which is a regular occurrence with varying degrees of success. What I'm saying is Tim has experience at the top level of football. He has been there, done it, and bought the t-shirt. He knows what it takes as a player to win a Premier League title over 38 games. Not a comparison to LvG, because as I stated before, they aren't comparable, but with little managerial experience, that is what we have to judge him by, so in that respect it could be worse. We can also judge him by his games so far. Again, could be worse. Started very well but has slipped somewhat lately. Wins against Benfica and Woolwich will immediately change many people's opinions of him I feel. Plus, he actually played for the club and seems to show some genuine passion, hurt and desire in his press conferences. He comes across like a fan that is affected by each and every result. In my eyes that at least counts for something when compared with our previous run of managers who haven't really seemed to give a fuck about the club.

LvG has an extremely impressive honours list, I can't deny that. And I'm certainly not against him becoming our manager. What I was showing is that rather than 2 glorious decades of champagne football and relationship-building, you could argue he has actually under-achieved at some of the clubs he has managed, and he has had more than his fair share of run-ins. He doesn't have any more of a track record of taking clubs in our position (on the periphery of success) onto that next level, especially in such a competitive league. And though it seems common sense to suggest he is far more qualified to do so, his best years appear to be behind him. In fact, 15 of his 19 managerial honours (an impressive haul no doubt) were before 2000. In the last 14 years he's won an Eredivisie title and a German double with Bayern Munich (and a DFB Supercup - essentially charity shield). The managers since, Heynckes and Guardiola, have eclipsed LvG's achievements at the German giants.

So if Van Gaal can win a trophy Tim can fuck off, but we'll have to sack Tim before finding out in Van Gaal can do so. Van Gaal is hardly a risk-free choice, and is not in the bracket of the world's current top coaches by any stretch of the imagination. (Again, not saying Tim is, this is not a comparison). The general consensus seems to be that there is no doubt LvG is the answer to all our problems and will have us polishing the trophy cabinet before we know it. In the last 5 years, he's won less trophies than Neil Lennon. You will say that is a ridiculous comparison, but I would say neither of their recent managerial honours are too much to shout about.

I have always been of the opinion that I'd rather finish 4th, compete in the Champions League and win nothing than finish 5th, compete in the EL and win the League Cup. For me, Champions League is the pinnacle of football right now, and I'd sooner watch us in 6 group games (and hopefully knockout rounds after) than see us scrap past Rochdale, Macclesfield, Yeovil and a second-string Hull City to reach Wembley. I want someone who can achieve that on a consistent basis, and presumable domestic trophies will follow. I believe that neither Tim nor LvG can deliver this, but Tim is our manager so I will support him. LvG is managing Netherlands and currently has fuck all to do with us, and I won't be too concerned if he never does.

 

[optimusgazza]

i think it boils down to

Tim has nothing to show in managerial terms, but he has won the Premier League, something our squad are far from capable of. For what he lacks in tactical nous, he makes up for in on-the-pitch experience and know-how. The players should respect him in such that he has done something none of them have but they should be striving to do. In my opinion, if any of our players are not giving their all due to Tim's CV, they can be released on a free as far as I'm concerned, from a fans' point of view.

To suggest Van Gaal knows what he's doing when he criticises players would be naive - he has cost himself several jobs doing so.

You mention LvG's history, but I notice everyone is cherry-picking his achievements and paying particular attention to his win ratio (something we know is not enough as AVB's was more than acceptable).
He managed Ajax for several years, taking over in a league heavily dominated by 2 teams until very recently (similar to the SPL until the Rangers fiasco). I would not attribute championships in the Eredivisie to being a top manager (after all Steve McLaren won it!), but a good start none-the-less.
Barcelona, again a league heavily dominated by 2 teams, but he broke a 3-year absence from league titles with them. Lost the title in his 3rd season to Deportivo La Coruna following a few high profile fall-outs with star players, in particular Rivaldo.
Took over as Netherlands manager - failed to qualify for the 2002 World Cup, finishing behind Portugal and Republic of Ireland.
Back to Barcelona in summer '02, but gone by January '03 with Barcelona sat 3 points off relegation.
Takes role of Technical Director at Ajax in '04 but resigns same year due to internal conflict.
Manager of AZ Alkmaar. Finishes 2nd, 3rd, 11th, 1st. Again, Eredivisie not comparable to the Premier League.
Bayern Munich, won the league title first season, something they had done 8 of the 12 previous seasons. Also won DFB Pokal.
Sacked in April the following season having dropped below 3rd place in the Bundesliga.
Back at Netherlands - remains to be seen how they will fair in Brazil.

He didn't win the Champions League with either Barcelona or Bayern Munich, could that be seen as an under-achievement by their standards? It certainly is these days, and they were equally as dominant back then.

Admittedly a brief breakdown, but it's hardly all unicorns and fairy tales. If he did come to manage us, it'd be the first 'project' of the sort. AZ are the only time he hasn't managed a club expected to win the league, and that league is not comparable to ours.

I don't deny LvG has far more on his CV to shout about, but does that automatically make him more suitable for us? I don't think so. In fact, you could argue he is as much of a risk as Tim is, given his inexperience managing teams at our level, and no experience of the Premier League whatsoever.

i kind of get where you are coming from with the Tim thing. Yes he HAS won the prem as a player so he knows what mental strength and skill you need to do this but as a manager it is a different kettle of fish. He has to motivate and organise a whole team not just him self, he has to worry about the 11 players on the pitch and not just his own performance. was his out burst justified? yes should it have been said publicly...Not sure

Unfortunately this time at spurs has been like work experiance for him that he will learn from. Does not help us at all but these are the cards we have been delt and will have to put up with until the end of the season when he goes.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Actually I would say your analogies are bollocks. University student/surgeon, brick layer/architect - not comparable to a player becoming a manager, which is a regular occurrence with varying degrees of success. What I'm saying is Tim has experience at the top level of football. He has been there, done it, and bought the t-shirt. He knows what it takes as a player to win a Premier League title over 38 games. Not a comparison to LvG, because as I stated before, they aren't comparable, but with little managerial experience, that is what we have to judge him by, so in that respect it could be worse. We can also judge him by his games so far. Again, could be worse. Started very well but has slipped somewhat lately. Wins against Benfica and Woolwich will immediately change many people's opinions of him I feel. Plus, he actually played for the club and seems to show some genuine passion, hurt and desire in his press conferences. He comes across like a fan that is affected by each and every result. In my eyes that at least counts for something when compared with our previous run of managers who haven't really seemed to give a fuck about the club.

LvG has an extremely impressive honours list, I can't deny that. And I'm certainly not against him becoming our manager. What I was showing is that rather than 2 glorious decades of champagne football and relationship-building, you could argue he has actually under-achieved at some of the clubs he has managed, and he has had more than his fair share of run-ins. He doesn't have any more of a track record of taking clubs in our position (on the periphery of success) onto that next level, especially in such a competitive league. And though it seems common sense to suggest he is far more qualified to do so, his best years appear to be behind him. In fact, 15 of his 19 managerial honours (an impressive haul no doubt) were before 2000. In the last 14 years he's won an Eredivisie title and a German double with Bayern Munich (and a DFB Supercup - essentially charity shield). The managers since, Heynckes and Guardiola, have eclipsed LvG's achievements at the German giants.

So if Van Gaal can win a trophy Tim can fuck off, but we'll have to sack Tim before finding out in Van Gaal can do so. Van Gaal is hardly a risk-free choice, and is not in the bracket of the world's current top coaches by any stretch of the imagination. (Again, not saying Tim is, this is not a comparison). The general consensus seems to be that there is no doubt LvG is the answer to all our problems and will have us polishing the trophy cabinet before we know it. In the last 5 years, he's won less trophies than Neil Lennon. You will say that is a ridiculous comparison, but I would say neither of their recent managerial honours are too much to shout about.

I have always been of the opinion that I'd rather finish 4th, compete in the Champions League and win nothing than finish 5th, compete in the EL and win the League Cup. For me, Champions League is the pinnacle of football right now, and I'd sooner watch us in 6 group games (and hopefully knockout rounds after) than see us scrap past Rochdale, Macclesfield, Yeovil and a second-string Hull City to reach Wembley. I want someone who can achieve that on a consistent basis, and presumable domestic trophies will follow. I believe that neither Tim nor LvG can deliver this, but Tim is our manager so I will support him. LvG is managing Netherlands and currently has fuck all to do with us, and I won't be too concerned if he never does.

Nobody is risk free. But the notion that we shouldn't give LvG a try because it may not work is, to me, just as risky as holding onto an untested manager and depending on pure hope. If you consider CL football to be the pinnacle then surely there is a more of a chance of qualifying for it with a manager who has both qualified for it on multiple occasions and won the competition itself. In contrast Sherwood has won the domestic league once, as a player. He's barely even played in the CL, let alone managed in it.

So if you think neither him or LvG can do it, who can? Or are you really just sitting in hope that Tim can pull off a miracle at a time when he's seemingly already lost some of the players?

 

[Millbanks]

Nobody is risk free. But the notion that we shouldn't give LvG a try because it may not work is, to me, just as risky as holding onto an untested manager and depending on pure hope. If you consider CL football to be the pinnacle then surely there is a more of a chance of qualifying for it with a manager who has both qualified for it on multiple occasions and won the competition itself. In contrast Sherwood has won the domestic league once, as a player. He's barely even played in the CL, let alone managed in it.

So if you think neither him or LvG can do it, who can? Or are you really just sitting in hope that Tim can pull off a miracle at a time when he's seemingly already lost some of the players?

Whether we are more likely to qualify for it under LvG is open to debate. As I said before, common sense suggests yes, but as I pointed out, it's not like he has taken an average team and achieved wonders with them. He won league titles with Ajax, Barcelona, AZ and Bayern Munich. All but one of them have had managers win titles since, and AZ was hardly a miracle - McLaren achieved the same feat of knocking Ajax and Psv off their perch with Twente. And he is shit.

I would certainly agree we would fair better in the CL under Van Gaal, but the Premier League is a different kettle of fish to any other league he's managed in. It'd be interesting to see, and he claims he is up for the challenge, but I would question his recent history as to whether he is the best manager we could get.

 

[tm1210]

I've got a sick feeling in the depths of my stomach that LVG could be a complete f**kup. Its got Spurs wrote all over it. I've been through too many false dawns now. I feel like we're doomed to failure for eternity.

 

[VirginiaSpur]

It's weird because Siggy was the one I was most excited about last season during the transfer window. He's just played out of position most of the time I think and that has destroyed his confidence. The fact that Lennon got picked for the number 10 role over him was a headscratcher.

He's never particularly impressed in that role for Spurs, though. He's slow and his first touch is average at best; his attempts to play through the middle have mostly resulted in him being swarmed and overwhelmed.

 

[alijamieson]

...If you consider CL football to be the pinnacle then surely there is a more of a chance of qualifying for it with a manager who has both qualified for it on multiple occasions and won the competition itself. In contrast Sherwood has won the domestic league once, as a player. He's barely even played in the CL, let alone managed in it...

Funnily enough, the one season Tim Sherwood was in CL, Blackburn finished bottom of their group with some pretty pedestrian teams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995–96_UEFA_Champions_League) That year LvG reached final, defeated by Juve.

 

[alijamieson]

He's never particularly impressed in that role for Spurs, though. He's slow and his first touch is average at best; his attempts to play through the middle have mostly resulted in him being swarmed and overwhelmed.

Sigurðsson slows counter attacks down, obviously there's a thread for him, so I wont bother going into it, but he's never impressed at Spurs for me.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

Funnily enough, the one season Tim Sherwood was in CL, Blackburn finished bottom of their group with some pretty pedestrian teams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995–96_UEFA_Champions_League) That year LvG reached final, defeated by Juve.

But, but, but, he's a top player and all that!?

I don't think there is any doubt that LvG is superior to Sherwood. Millbanks maybe be right in that LvG still comes with risk, but I really don't think the two should be mentioned in the same sentence.

 

[gibbs131]

This thread is so depressing...Needs some nostalgia.