The crimes and delusion of ENIC FC

[Team Tanguy]

Only read the first page of this, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "well who else is better than ENIC?"

I don't know, and I don't know if I want ENIC to go.

BUT just because they're not as bad as others, doesn't mean what they do is acceptable.

It's like beating your kids daily and saying to them "well at least I'm not a nonce". Right?

 

[Gothamizm]

Only read the first page of this, but it seems like a lot of people are saying "well who else is better than ENIC?"

I don't know, and I don't know if I want ENIC to go.

BUT just because they're not as bad as others, doesn't mean what they do is acceptable.

It's like beating your kids daily and saying to them "well at least I'm not a nonce". Right?

I agree and have to echo what's bed said earlier: I think we've seen the ceiling of ENIC's strategy of buy low sell high (for players) and the ongoing lack of silverware is troubling. The number of players who signed for the opportunity to work with AVB as opposed to being part of Tottenham was a bit troubling...

Plus the lack of mettle when it goes against a manager is worrying too. The thought that you're six bad games from the boot can't be particularly comforting...

 

[CJJ]

I agree and have to echo what's bed said earlier: I think we've seen the ceiling of ENIC's strategy of buy low sell high (for players) and the ongoing lack of silverware is troubling. The number of players who signed for the opportunity to work with AVB as opposed to being part of Tottenham was a bit troubling...

Plus the lack of mettle when it goes against a manager is worrying too. The thought that you're six bad games from the boot can't be particularly comforting...

To be fair, I think we have the best ownership we could have bar being a "toy" (as are Chelsea and City, really). You have to blame the managers and players.

I don't think there's evidence to say that the board don't try their best to get the right guy in or listen to the fans - a LOT of people wanted Redknapp out for stuffing up 3rd place, and a LOT of people felt that the squad was obviously there to win the league, right? And also, I'm sure a lot of guys in the know said "AVB only failed because of John Terry and Lampard player power, look what he did with a good squad the Porto?" - All the facts worked out right, putting AVB in charge of that squad seemed like a great plan. Then last season, record points, only just missed out on CL quals - people said we needed to reinforce, Bale going was out of anyones control so they did the best the could and got a wedge for him, a good fee for Hudds and Parker who many said weren't title winning players... Brought in Baldini because AVB wanted him, no questions asked, Spent £100m on players, breaking the record for transfers in 3 x over.
Then people wanted AVB out after the big losses, they pulled the trigger.

I get frustrated, but at the end of the day I see that they do the best they can do without being stupid, it's always down to the players and manager(s)

 

[Gothamizm]

To be fair, I think we have the best ownership we could have bar being a "toy" (as are Chelsea and City, really). You have to blame the managers and players.

I don't think there's evidence to say that the board don't try their best to get the right guy in or listen to the fans - a LOT of people wanted Redknapp out for stuffing up 3rd place, and a LOT of people felt that the squad was obviously there to win the league, right? And also, I'm sure a lot of guys in the know said "AVB only failed because of John Terry and Lampard player power, look what he did with a good squad the Porto?" - All the facts worked out right, putting AVB in charge of that squad seemed like a great plan. Then last season, record points, only just missed out on CL quals - people said we needed to reinforce, Bale going was out of anyones control so they did the best the could and got a wedge for him, a good fee for Hudds and Parker who many said weren't title winning players... Brought in Baldini because AVB wanted him, no questions asked, Spent £100m on players, breaking the record for transfers in 3 x over.
Then people wanted AVB out after the big losses, they pulled the trigger.

I get frustrated, but at the end of the day I see that they do the best they can do without being stupid, it's always down to the players and manager(s)

I don't blame fans for being fickle, but I do blame the upper echelons for not standing by their man or having three to five people they can sound out should they need to at any point.

I suspect that we aren't the draw we used to be due to a lack of success and stability for a while.

 

[CJJ]

I don't blame fans for being fickle, but I do blame the upper echelons for not standing by their man or having three to five people they can sound out should they need to at any point.

I suspect that we aren't the draw we used to be due to a lack of success and stability for a while.

I think they stood by him a bit longer, AVB was the architect of his own doom - you see the likes of Sam Allardyce and he doesn't react like AVB did - he changes tactics, doesn't come out and slag the fans off or anything like that. AVB didn't just go through a rough patch, he alienated everyone around him and it's hard to come back from that. I think we all needed to see a glimmer of hope, he dug a hole and sat in it.

I think it was said at the time that they didn't plan to sack him at all and something happened in the meeting... I'm suspicious that AVB put his head on the block more than anything.

I think AVBs problem was that he got really very arrogant - he should have been asking Jose for advice, not alienating him too. I liked the guy and wanted him to do well, but surely everyone could see that he was being stubborn and it was his biggest failure (can even see it now in his 'toys out the pram' "I'm not bothering with managing any more")

That's of course my perception and not based on solid fact, just what I've been exposed to.

 

[Yorkshire_Spurs]

As long as they continue to pass themselves off as the benefactors of the people of Haringey (ha) they'll get it renewed. I don't know when it does run out though.
These plans were announced in 2008 as we all know. Six years on, still nothing. Minimal investment (in real terms) in the team, and none at all in the stadium. They're bluffing, and it's been noticed.

Dude, Sainsburys.

 

[CJJ]

I often get confused about the "never invest in the team" part. Any other chairman would have sold bale for £40m less, so if you imagine we still spent the same, the only difference would be that we'd be £40m worse off?


People also talk about it like throwing money at buying expensive players is the answer, yet everyone slates the £56m record breakers:
:soldadowtf::lamelashock:


Out of all honesty, if you asked someone what they would have done differently, considering the players available and who would be willing to come to WHL, it'd either look very similar, less spent, or something out of a Football Manager fantasy....

If you bob along to our rival's forums you'll see that Everton are chuffed their club might be finally making money and newcastle pissed that they sell all their prized players for a lot less than we would and then none of that gets spent.

:lennon:

 

[57 varieties]

This 100%

Whenever this debate comes up no one ever names a realistic owner they would rather have.

would Philip green would surfice!... or nigel wray !!

 

[Éperons]

Haven't we been owned by rich fans aplenty? Wale didn't want adverts in the stadium in 1970 since the club was doing fine financially. Of course, at that time we were the ones paying record transfer fees (Coates and Greaves, iirc). But when they did spend money to refurb WHL, they got into debt and had to sell to Scholar, another self-professed fan who ran up debt and had to sell. Sugar, afaict sold basically because he was bored, so there's that. And Levy's allegedly a boyhood fan of the club.

So we've had plenty of rich fan owners.

 

[57 varieties]

Haven't we been owned by rich fans aplenty? Wale didn't want adverts in the stadium in 1970 since the club was doing fine financially. Of course, at that time we were the ones paying record transfer fees (Coates and Greaves, iirc). But when they did spend money to refurb WHL, they got into debt and had to sell to Scholar, another self-professed fan who ran up debt and had to sell. Sugar, afaict sold basically because he was bored, so there's that. And Levy's allegedly a boyhood fan of the club.

So we've had plenty of rich fan owners.

think you'll find it was scholar who got us into financial difficulty.. the way he got to own thfc from Sidney wale etc was underhand to say the least but nothing to do with debt.

 

[trifficTotnum]

I think they stood by him a bit longer, AVB was the architect of his own doom - you see the likes of Sam Allardyce and he doesn't react like AVB did - he changes tactics, doesn't come out and slag the fans off or anything like that. AVB didn't just go through a rough patch, he alienated everyone around him and it's hard to come back from that. I think we all needed to see a glimmer of hope, he dug a hole and sat in it.

I think it was said at the time that they didn't plan to sack him at all and something happened in the meeting... I'm suspicious that AVB put his head on the block more than anything.

I think AVBs problem was that he got really very arrogant - he should have been asking Jose for advice, not alienating him too. I liked the guy and wanted him to do well, but surely everyone could see that he was being stubborn and it was his biggest failure (can even see it now in his 'toys out the pram' "I'm not bothering with managing any more")

That's of course my perception and not based on solid fact, just what I've been exposed to.

What a load of rubbish, sam allardyce is an inflexible idiot who has been putting 10 men behind the ball nearly every game now.Speaking of alienating players isn't this what Redknapp did to pavluchenko,pienaar,Kranjcar,Corluka and several others. What about how Sherwood has alienated Holtby, Capoue and made a couple of irrational boredline xenophobic comments about foreign players?

AVB is certainly not any better or worse than Jol or Harry. The common theme for all these managers is no backing from the chairman and bringing in the WRONG players. Try shovelling a hole with a pick axe.This is ENIC logic, they are amateurs. If they had any real ambition they would be milking that cash cow called the champions league. But levy is too stupid and short sighted he just can't wait to sell VDV for 10m, Defoe for 6m...ect got sell the players before they get too old whether that weakens the squad or not. At least the balance is healthy.

 

[trifficTotnum]

And those who keep going on about the 90s, what about the 60s and 80s. Why is the worst decade for THFC always used as a reference point for what can go wrong, what about what can go right?. I am honestly sick and tired of levy. It is the same dysfunctional pattern year after year. If we are to return to midtable mediocrity, So be it lets at least have an FA cup or carling Cup run.But no nothing. We are almost top 4 club club that keeps perpetually getting bogged down by long europa league campagnes that we cannot challenge in.DOF system in, DOF system out, DOF system in..9 managers.. 300m players in, 300m players out... Squad always left with a vulnerability./weakness that has perpetualy sabotagged the top 4 ever since the 2009-10 season.And fair play to levy for getting the best prices for players and keeping spurs 'financially stable' but he has taken this too far now.The soul of THFC is being drained out having our talismen sold annually and bullshit like stubhub.

 

[CJJ]

What a load of rubbish, sam allardyce is an inflexible idiot who has been putting 10 men behind the ball nearly every game now.

And gets the team a point instead of losing 6-0?

Speaking of alienating players isn't this what Redknapp did to pavluchenko,pienaar,Kranjcar,Corluka and several others. What about how Sherwood has alienated Holtby, Capoue and made a couple of irrational boredline xenophobic comments about foreign players?

No it isn't, Pavluchenko, Pienaar, Kranjcar and Corluka all played and had chances, they just weren't good enough to stay in the first team. Kranjcar now plays for Harry Redknapp at QPR, that's not what alienated players do. Adebayor has been arguably our best player this season, that isn't a guy who isn't good enough for the first team, nor was Soldado keeping anyone out.
Yes, Sherwood is just as shit at managing players. This is about how it is not the fault of the board for managers digging themselves a hole.

AVB is certainly not any better or worse than Jol or Harry. The common theme for all these managers is no backing from the chairman and bringing in the WRONG players. Try shovelling a hole with a pick axe.This is ENIC logic, they are amateurs. If they had any real ambition they would be milking that cash cow called the champions league.

Benefit of hindsight - who are the RIGHT players then? I assume you're aware of Franco Baldini, not a lot of people seem to be, he's employed to do that bit, under the request of AVB. Daniel Levy doesn't buy players, he rubber stamps the moves and does some negotiating.

But levy is too stupid and short sighted he just can't wait to sell VDV for 10m,

Who wanted to go.

Defoe for 6m

Who wanted to go.

...ect got sell the players before they get too old whether that weakens the squad or not.

Like Berba, Carrick, Modric, Bale? All players who wanted to go, he tried to keep Modric and Bale and delayed a move for at least another season - it was bad luck with Chelsea winning the ECL that kept us from being in it and therefore key players wanting out.

At least the balance is healthy.

Yes, of course you'd prefer a board like any number of our rivals who sell players for what they're worth and are still massively in debt?


FFS, I'm sure all the 'anti-ENIC/Levy' lot would prefer us to be Alan Sugar's spurs, buying players for £500k and losing key players on Bosman's.
:avbfacepalm:

I think Levy deserves a medal for what he gets the club in ££'s for players!

I'm still waiting for a sensible and logical argument against the board, rather than blaming Levy for unemployment in the UK, the war in Iraq, the price of Bread, last nights takeaway etc.

 

[Mad Yid]

Its a fairly simple principle.
Think of the PL as a fight between 5 year old boys at kindergarten
Manchester City and Chelsea are the two 190lb gentlemen holding the baseball bats

Most of us would like to win the fight, without having to take on the "5 year olds" with the stubble and the bats -
much less find out that daddy sewed one of our sleeves behind our backs and put a patch over one of our eyes.

I'm sure that analogy is more palatable for you

You of course, being the gangsta that you are would send your boy in with a silenced mac 10

I wouldn't send in anybody micky, I don't like co defendants

but yeah you're analogy was poorly thought out and shit but atleast it keeps up your appearance as a stupid old idiot

 

[CJJ]

And those who keep going on about the 90s, what about the 60s and 80s. Why is the worst decade for THFC always used as a reference point for what can go wrong, what about what can go right?. I am honestly sick and tired of levy. It is the same dysfunctional pattern year after year. If we are to return to midtable mediocrity, So be it lets at least have an FA cup or carling Cup run.But no nothing.

Ahh yes, no cup runs. Not like the Quarter Final of the Europa last season? Semi-Final of the FA cup before that? Quarter Final of the Champions League before that? 2009/10's Semi of the FA and QF of the League Cup? Runner up of the League Cup in 2008/2009?
aulinhofacepalm:

Of course let's pump £200m into winning the League Cup, with it's literally irrelevant prize of... The Europa League (which we should then withdraw from in the hope of winning the League Cup again). And fuck the league? It's not like top 5 finishes keep us financially stable.

Hell, lets just put everything we have into the cup, who cares if we end up relegated, right? Because I'm sure that all our stars will love being 16th in the league as long as they get a mickey mouse medal.

 

[S.L.R]

Haven't we been owned by rich fans aplenty? Wale didn't want adverts in the stadium in 1970 since the club was doing fine financially. Of course, at that time we were the ones paying record transfer fees (Coates and Greaves, iirc). But when they did spend money to refurb WHL, they got into debt and had to sell to Scholar, another self-professed fan who ran up debt and had to sell. Sugar, afaict sold basically because he was bored, so there's that. And Levy's allegedly a boyhood fan of the club.

So we've had plenty of rich fan owners.

Well, I think whether they are fans of the club isn't in itself the issue. At least, when I posted about the Palace owners and mentioned that they were fans of the club, I think my main point was about the way they seek to maintain good relations with the fans, re open dialogue, ticket prices, etc.

 

[Johnboy40]

without going into all of it, there is one thing here I take issue with, whatever the source. The idea that Liverpool kept their itchy feet want away star player and that shows their ambition....

any one (and I mean ANYONE) that thinks , had Liverpool got an £85 mill bid for Suarez from Real Madrid, that he would still be playing for Liverpool now is an idiot. he would have been on the first plane to Madrid whether Liverpool liked it or not, and would have forced the move. (I still think thats what the plan was, until Barca fucked it by signing Neymar, causing Madrid to go for Bale a year earlier than planned)

 

[Mad Yid]

without going into all of it, there is one thing here I take issue with, whatever the source. The idea that Liverpool kept their itchy feet want away star player and that shows their ambition....

any one (and I mean ANYONE) that thinks , had Liverpool got an £85 mill bid for Suarez from Real Madrid, that he would still be playing for Liverpool now is an idiot. he would have been on the first plane to Madrid whether Liverpool liked it or not, and would have forced the move. (I still think thats what the plan was, until Barca fucked it by signing Neymar, causing Madrid to go for Bale a year earlier than planned)

tbf he did everything he could to force a move but the scousers stood firm but yeah I agree an 85 mil bid probably would have sealed it BUT only with Henrys blessing, Rogers put him in the reserves remember

 

[Johnboy40]

to be honest, I think had the gooners bid 41 or 42 million, they might have got him, but the 40 mill + 1 pound bid put the bindippers backs up.
Im certain that if madrid had bid 40 ish they would have got him.

 

[CJJ]

The difference between Levy and ANY other chairman is that when a player goes, it's for big bucks. Kudos to him.
United sold Ronaldo & Beckham, and have had no other players worth anyone bidding for. They'd sell rooney for £40m easily I think.
Liverpool sold Torres & Alonso
Chelsea just sold Mata for good money (their 2 times player of the season)
Woolwich sold Henry, Fabregas, Adebayor, van Persie.....

It happens. Players want to leave. Get over it people. The fact we make good money isn't the motivator, more the silver lining.

In the past 5 years we've been the 3rd highest spending team in the league (£310,900,000). In that time, we've sold £307,050,000 worth of players. Not bad when you consider the shit we've actually had in the last 5 years (Hutton £9m, Bentley was near £20m, Pav the same too [although bought just over 5 years ago]).

Answer me this:

Are people actually just pissed off that we're not losing money??