"Yid" chanting...

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Yid chants, offensive?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 7.8%

  • No

    Votes: 317 92.2%
  • Total voters
    344
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Unfortunately @ Smoked Salmon Smoked Salmon people were brought up in the '50s to think that smoking was good for you too!

Times do change, sometimes for the better, sometimes most definitely for the worse.
The change of meaning of the word YID has already changed from its' original original inoffensive, to its' very offensive meaning during yours, and my Grandparents era... (and a few generations after them too) ...so hopefully, NOW, in 2014 I'd like to think that people of OUR generation COULD take that word BACK (taking it BACK is key here, we're not the ones who have abducted, gang-raped and ruined the word for life) and give it back its' positive (or at least a different positive) meaning.

The fact they've charged 3 Spurs fans for trying to do just that (whether they knew it or not) it the key to the problem, and would suggest to me, that the authorities (and Baddeil's) of this country, are quite happy to let a word STAY offensive, and do all they can to ensure it remains so... just so they can simply ban IT (and prosecute anyone who uses it, regardless of whether their intentions are good!)

Too many (brackets) used, I know... but i'm sure you appreciate the point I'm trying to make.
I can see both sides, having been on both sides... (I have given, as well as received!!) it's a toughie, and a powder-keg of an argument, that's for sure...
 
1882 said:
In that it means Jewish Chap, or Mate?

I don't think any Chelsea/West Ham fans see us as their 'Jewish mate'!!

Context argument once again... the fact they use it against us, is 'cos of their warped understanding of its' connection with Jew... the reason they used THAT word, is 'cos of their hatred and loathing of Spurs fans.
That, by definition, has surely changed the meaning of the word... or at least the meaning of it's use!

Wow, this is getting deep...
Click to expand...


Say you have a ship that you built and it gets hijacked by soveriegn wearing ten to two footed pirates, it doesnt become their ship the moment they hoist the jolly roger its still yours. You just have to get it back. And Spurs fans are merely helping to get the ship back.
 
Eskimo said:
Say you have a ship that you built and it gets hijacked by soveriegn wearing ten to two footed pirates, it doesnt become their ship the moment they hoist the jolly roger its still yours. You just have to get it back. And Spurs fans are merely helping to get the ship back.
Click to expand...

Are you saying we should we change it to YID NAVY!! (shit, it only bloody works too!!!)
Clearly the 'ARMY' bit isn't working... NEVER GREEN!!

You're spot on @ Eskimo Eskimo @Inuit... it is most DEFINITELY about taking back what was ours... (by ours, I mean Jews... as a Spurs fan, I am merely in a position to try and do something about it!)

Every time I keep reading that Spurs have adopted the word because of their/our perceived Jewish heritage, I think that the point is being missed.
WE didn't call ourselves YIDS to start with... and it didn't even dawn on us to do so...
it was fans of OTHER clubs, who 'assumed' that our (non-existent) Jewish roots were there for ridicule, and therefore (mis)used and abused the word to hurl at us...

Not usually a fan of Billy Joel, but in this case he's right; "WE DIDN'T START THE FIRE!"
 
The thing I dont understand, and perhaps someone could clear up for me. Is that the word yid itself isn't offensive. It's short for Yiddish. Meaning Jewish right. Therefore yid means jew. This i get.
It's used freely by actual real life Jews. Right. So again. We're quite clear that in that respect. There's no problem with the word yid.

Now, to me, the real problem is in what context the word is used. For example.
During the times mentioned by SS when his grandparents suffered racial abuse by the term yid. Surely it was not the word itself. Rather, the sentence and/or context it was used In.
For example. "dirty yids" "big nosed yids" or whatever. Which clearly have negative intent.
Even just the way it's said, for example saying the word yid in an angry insulting Way is obviously an insult. Whereas if i said to a jew friend of mine "alright yiddo!" in a friendly welcoming manner, that's in no way racist, right? Alright means hello, yid means jew or Jewish friend. So it means "hello my Jewish friend"

It's the same as, the words "fucking dirty yids" could have multiple meaning.

1) it could mean That, if said by a west ham fan towards a group of tottenham supporters the person saying it doesn't like that group of tottenham supporters.
Is that racist? No not really. It's the same as me saying "dirty fucking hammers" that's their nickname and yid is ours. It's ridiculous if the only people allowed to say our nickname is us.

2) it could be said by a rival fan to indicate that tottenham are playing in a."dirty" way. Eg, reckless fouls and borderline cheating. Is that racist. Again no, not really. The.fucking is used to express anger, dirty describes the type of play and yids refers to our players. We ourselves readily describe Jermain Defoe as a yiddo. Why are others fans not allowed too.

3) it could be said by ANYONE towards a group of Jews. This is obviously racist. Especially if said in an angry way. Is that in any Way similar to the above examples? i dont think so. Same words, entirely different meaning.

The word reading can mean either to use your eyes and study words, whilst using your brain to give them context. Or a place in Berkshire. Its the EXACT SAME WORD. With two entirely different meanings. but would you get confused between the 2? probably not. If i said, "im just at home reading." You arent going to think im in berkshire are you?

So, taking all that into account. In what way, AT ALL, can the words yid army, or even just the word yid, be at all constituted racist, if the person saying it is a tottenham fan at a tottenham game!
The person saying it, is saying about THEMSELVES! Can you be arrested for racially aggravating yourSELF??? (genuine question.. can you?)
 
Smoked Salmon said:
Why not try and change nigger as well then?
Click to expand...

Nigger has been changed, in given circumstance.

Should I walk up to a black guy and call him a nigger he will take offence being as Im white and its considered inappropriate/degrading/offensive.

Should a black guy call him nigger he will not take offence, if anything its likely to be a term of endearment to him.

Context is everything and he can distinguish and react accordingly.

"Cunt" is another. Where I grew up considered the "worst" of all the swear words. "You soppy cunt!" has been used as both an insult and a greeting to me, such are my friends - I understand when it is intended to offend and when it isnt.

Ive no religious affiliation, and being a white UK male Ive no ethnic minority association either so no experience of how terms like Yid or Nigger feel to those to whom they relate. However, I certainly sympathise and understand that growing up you always understood the word to be an offensive term.

Even so, I would have thought it to be contextual. Many words can have many meanings, context is what tells you what they mean in any given situation.

Someone walking up to you in the street outside the synagogue and saying "Fucking Yid" is highly offensive. I struggle to see how full house at WHL shouting "Yid Army!" is in any way similar.

I understand, given your upbringing and experience, hearing the word in any context probably grates to say the least, but to be offended in football situations of tribal solidarity I find odd. Does discomfort have to be the same as offence?

It does have dual meaning now. If I hear "Yid" the first thing in mind is not "Jew" but "Spurs fan". And like others my understanding of the word was somewhat backward, because I understood the latter long before I understood the former.

I certainly respect the impact it can have, so use the word in a contextually appropriate way. At the game - ok, walking up the high st - probably not ok. However I do not agree with the idea of being fully censored on it and told Im bordering on racism for using it when I do so without holding any of the associated (accused?) meaning.
 
The Club conducted sentiment research on the use of the Y word amongst our supporters during October last year. We received 11,500 responses and should like to thank fans for the many well-considered and sincere expression of views. We have spent time ensuring that each and every response submitted was read by the team of personnel dealing with this issue at the Club.
The Club took the decision, with legal advice, not to issue the findings of the research whilst the cases against our fans were progressing so as not to prejudice the proceedings in any way, and in light of yesterday's developments, this remains the position.
We shall continue to monitor these cases as they proceed.
At this point in time, whilst we believe that our fans do not use the word with any deliberate intent to offend, we would once again remind our fans that the Metropolitan Police has stated that the use of the word can be considered a criminal offence on the basis that it can cause offence and we would ask that supporters are mindful of their use of the word.
We shall provide more guidance ahead of the Man City game following a meeting with the Police in advance of the match. Please check club channels for updates.
Please be assured we shall also be discussing with the Police, once again, the importance of adopting a zero tolerance position on anti-Semitic abuse.
 
It's such a ridiculous, totalitarian stance. It reminds me of the film idiocracy.
It's like the met police are too stupid to understand. They just hear a word that was once said to a Jewish person to offend them, and presume that it MUST be an offensive word.
How can a whole police force and members of parliament not understand, Yet us morons on here know the difference between me saying yid army, and a group of hammers singing hitlers on his way to gas us?
 
Anthony Beale said:
The thing I dont understand, and perhaps someone could clear up for me. Is that the word yid itself isn't offensive. It's short for Yiddish. Meaning Jewish right. Therefore yid means jew. This i get.
It's used freely by actual real life Jews. Right. So again. We're quite clear that in that respect. There's no problem with the word yid.

Now, to me, the real problem is in what context the word is used. For example.
During the times mentioned by SS when his grandparents suffered racial abuse by the term yid. Surely it was not the word itself. Rather, the sentence and/or context it was used In.
For example. "dirty yids" "big nosed yids" or whatever. Which clearly have negative intent.
Even just the way it's said, for example saying the word yid in an angry insulting Way is obviously an insult. Whereas if i said to a jew friend of mine "alright yiddo!" in a friendly welcoming manner, that's in no way racist, right? Alright means hello, yid means jew or Jewish friend. So it means "hello my Jewish friend"

It's the same as, the words "fucking dirty yids" could have multiple meaning.

1) it could mean That, if said by a west ham fan towards a group of tottenham supporters the person saying it doesn't like that group of tottenham supporters.
Is that racist? No not really. It's the same as me saying "dirty fucking hammers" that's their nickname and yid is ours. It's ridiculous if the only people allowed to say our nickname is us.

2) it could be said by a rival fan to indicate that tottenham are playing in a."dirty" way. Eg, reckless fouls and borderline cheating. Is that racist. Again no, not really. The.fucking is used to express anger, dirty describes the type of play and yids refers to our players. We ourselves readily describe Jermain Defoe as a yiddo. Why are others fans not allowed too.

3) it could be said by ANYONE towards a group of Jews. This is obviously racist. Especially if said in an angry way. Is that in any Way similar to the above examples? i dont think so. Same words, entirely different meaning.

The word reading can mean either to use your eyes and study words, whilst using your brain to give them context. Or a place in Berkshire. Its the EXACT SAME WORD. With two entirely different meanings. but would you get confused between the 2? probably not. If i said, "im just at home reading." You arent going to think im in berkshire are you?

So, taking all that into account. In what way, AT ALL, can the words yid army, or even just the word yid, be at all constituted racist, if the person saying it is a tottenham fan at a tottenham game!
The person saying it, is saying about THEMSELVES! Can you be arrested for racially aggravating yourSELF??? (genuine question.. can you?)
Click to expand...
Well done sir. Someone with a bit of sense
 
Anthony Beale said:
The thing I dont understand, and perhaps someone could clear up for me. Is that the word yid itself isn't offensive. It's short for Yiddish. Meaning Jewish right. Therefore yid means jew. This i get.
It's used freely by actual real life Jews. Right. So again. We're quite clear that in that respect. There's no problem with the word yid.

Now, to me, the real problem is in what context the word is used. For example.
During the times mentioned by SS when his grandparents suffered racial abuse by the term yid. Surely it was not the word itself. Rather, the sentence and/or context it was used In.
For example. "dirty yids" "big nosed yids" or whatever. Which clearly have negative intent.
Even just the way it's said, for example saying the word yid in an angry insulting Way is obviously an insult. Whereas if i said to a jew friend of mine "alright yiddo!" in a friendly welcoming manner, that's in no way racist, right? Alright means hello, yid means jew or Jewish friend. So it means "hello my Jewish friend"

It's the same as, the words "fucking dirty yids" could have multiple meaning.

1) it could mean That, if said by a west ham fan towards a group of tottenham supporters the person saying it doesn't like that group of tottenham supporters.
Is that racist? No not really. It's the same as me saying "dirty fucking hammers" that's their nickname and yid is ours. It's ridiculous if the only people allowed to say our nickname is us.

2) it could be said by a rival fan to indicate that tottenham are playing in a."dirty" way. Eg, reckless fouls and borderline cheating. Is that racist. Again no, not really. The.fucking is used to express anger, dirty describes the type of play and yids refers to our players. We ourselves readily describe Jermain Defoe as a yiddo. Why are others fans not allowed too.

3) it could be said by ANYONE towards a group of Jews. This is obviously racist. Especially if said in an angry way. Is that in any Way similar to the above examples? i dont think so. Same words, entirely different meaning.

The word reading can mean either to use your eyes and study words, whilst using your brain to give them context. Or a place in Berkshire. Its the EXACT SAME WORD. With two entirely different meanings. but would you get confused between the 2? probably not. If i said, "im just at home reading." You arent going to think im in berkshire are you?

So, taking all that into account. In what way, AT ALL, can the words yid army, or even just the word yid, be at all constituted racist, if the person saying it is a tottenham fan at a tottenham game!
The person saying it, is saying about THEMSELVES! Can you be arrested for racially aggravating yourSELF??? (genuine question.. can you?)
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the match-day stewards and Police have neither the inclination, intellect or time to work any of this out and make the distinction themselves!

It would be interesting to ask an Hassidic Jew what 'phrase' he found more offensive;
YID ARMY
or DIRTY STINKING JEW...

...unless he's particularly sensitive (or a petulant Gooner) I'd be amazed if he said the one with the word Yid in it was more offensive than the one without it... then again, he might just say "both" and that would be the end of that argument!
 
Still reckon that OB are just pursuing this one case to see how it goes. Secure a conviction, precedent is set, they then continue to crack down on its use. An acquittal means they turn a blind eye to Spurs' fans use of the word, maybe then go after the real anti-Semites. Personally I think OB would quietly be happier with the latter result.
 
I reckon this is the real reason Defoe is leaving us for Canada.he could see the change was coming and didn't want to stick around when his song, matching his down-turn in goals turns to:

JERMAINE DEFOE, HE'S A MIDO!

Sorry, awfully serious chat, thought I'd contribute.:adelol:
 
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